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I agree following fixed lanes with stored maps and GPS won't work on snow-covered roads. But you lost me in two places. First, does following others' tracks ne

I agree following fixed lanes with stored maps and GPS won't work on snow-covered roads. But you lost me in two places. First, does following others' tracks necessarily mean visual-range light? I'd expect you could see tracks on infrared. Probably also LIDAR—this isn't my field of expertise but obviously tracks have depth, so I'd think it'd work if the resolution/precision is sufficient. (Not sure how well LIDAR works while snow is falling but that's a different concern than the one you mentioned.) Second, does using visual-range light (for some or all of the input) mean having automatic high beams on? I very rarely use high beams myself. (Then again, maybe automatic high beams very rarely turns on too.) And certainly if other vehicles/pedestrians are actually present at the moment—when it's most important to be behaving like them—infrared, LIDAR, and RADAR are options for seeing them.

lazide 5y ago
It depends - be aware though that the more you diverge from the sensor input others use, the more you tend to diverge from others behaviors. You see different data. It’s important (often more important) while driving that you’re doing what others expect, less what the rules say must be done - especially on edge case behavior. Each sensor suite has it’s own pros and cons - LiDAR can have real challenges with reflective surfaces or highly absorptive ones (wet and slick, oily, snow). It’s range is based off return signal strength. There are also problems with many LiDAR sensors and daylight drowning out the signal. Time of flight sensors (really a type of ‘broadcast’ LiDAR) have similar issues combined with some weird edge cases with reflective geometries or some surfaces. Passive visual light sensors have issues with contrast (high signal strength drowns out low signal strength in nearby areas) and lacks useful information about time of flight unlike LiDAR. They are Cheap though generally, and give us a signal we generally think are ‘obvious’ Active radar sensors (including phased array) also provide very useful signals, also have pros and cons. Sonar, same. Ideally you’d have 360 coverage from enough different sensors that you can do sensor fusion and detect and exclude a sensor in situations where you’re hitting a known problem for a sensor suite. Looking into the sun? Well visual and potentially LiDAR/ToF data is iffy, switch to sonar and radar. In a high EMF environment? Surrounded by metal? Switch off radar perhaps. Those cost money - equipment and development - however.
- kosievdmerwe 5y ago
  > It’s important (often more important) while driving that you’re doing what others expect, less what the rules say must be done - especially on edge case behavior First rule of the road is avoid accidents. From there flows rules like driving in a predictable manner and giving up right of way when necessary.
  - lazide 5y ago
    Unfortunately as self driving cars make apparent, the rule is about as clear cut or practically useful from an engineering perspective as Asimov’s 3 laws of robotics. If you are in a climate with lots of snow and slush, and are in a road with zero lane visibility and everyone is moving along too fast for road conditions (unable to effectively stop in time stopping distance wise). Do you 1) go slow in the right hand lane, potentially leading to a pileup? 2) keep up with the road traffic (maybe trying to stay in the low side), and then maybe get in a wreck if a deer jumps out in front of you? 3) know this is a common situation for that road in the current weather condition and avoid the road entirely? 4) some variant of these? In many cases it can only be judged retroactively, or as Waymo or others are finding out, REALLY be respected by being so paranoid and conservative you can’t really function in the real world environment that presents itself and/or require essentially walled gardens so the environment is controlled enough you can have the certainty you need. The waymo answer here is ‘don’t drive at all’. Which is great, unless you’re running out of food and a bigger storm is coming in, or you’ll lose your job if you don’t show up in the next 39 minutes. Humans manage to be somewhat functional in these kinds of environments - we’ve had to be, evolutionary pressure wise. We’ve got a ways to go before self driving cars will be a help instead of a hindrance here.

lazide 5y ago

It depends - be aware though that the more you diverge from the sensor input others use, the more you tend to diverge from others behaviors. You see different data. It’s important (often more important) while driving that you’re doing what others expect, less what the rules say must be done - especially on edge case behavior. Each sensor suite has it’s own pros and cons - LiDAR can have real challenges with reflective surfaces or highly absorptive ones (wet and slick, oily, snow). It’s range is based off return signal strength. There are also problems with many LiDAR sensors and daylight drowning out the signal. Time of flight sensors (really a type of ‘broadcast’ LiDAR) have similar issues combined with some weird edge cases with reflective geometries or some surfaces. Passive visual light sensors have issues with contrast (high signal strength drowns out low signal strength in nearby areas) and lacks useful information about time of flight unlike LiDAR. They are Cheap though generally, and give us a signal we generally think are ‘obvious’ Active radar sensors (including phased array) also provide very useful signals, also have pros and cons. Sonar, same. Ideally you’d have 360 coverage from enough different sensors that you can do sensor fusion and detect and exclude a sensor in situations where you’re hitting a known problem for a sensor suite. Looking into the sun? Well visual and potentially LiDAR/ToF data is iffy, switch to sonar and radar. In a high EMF environment? Surrounded by metal? Switch off radar perhaps. Those cost money - equipment and development - however.

kosievdmerwe 5y ago
> It’s important (often more important) while driving that you’re doing what others expect, less what the rules say must be done - especially on edge case behavior First rule of the road is avoid accidents. From there flows rules like driving in a predictable manner and giving up right of way when necessary.
- lazide 5y ago
  Unfortunately as self driving cars make apparent, the rule is about as clear cut or practically useful from an engineering perspective as Asimov’s 3 laws of robotics. If you are in a climate with lots of snow and slush, and are in a road with zero lane visibility and everyone is moving along too fast for road conditions (unable to effectively stop in time stopping distance wise). Do you 1) go slow in the right hand lane, potentially leading to a pileup? 2) keep up with the road traffic (maybe trying to stay in the low side), and then maybe get in a wreck if a deer jumps out in front of you? 3) know this is a common situation for that road in the current weather condition and avoid the road entirely? 4) some variant of these? In many cases it can only be judged retroactively, or as Waymo or others are finding out, REALLY be respected by being so paranoid and conservative you can’t really function in the real world environment that presents itself and/or require essentially walled gardens so the environment is controlled enough you can have the certainty you need. The waymo answer here is ‘don’t drive at all’. Which is great, unless you’re running out of food and a bigger storm is coming in, or you’ll lose your job if you don’t show up in the next 39 minutes. Humans manage to be somewhat functional in these kinds of environments - we’ve had to be, evolutionary pressure wise. We’ve got a ways to go before self driving cars will be a help instead of a hindrance here.