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I've had a string of Google phones going back to the Nexus 5x but, for the very reasons laid out in this article, my next phone will likely be from Apple. That

I've had a string of Google phones going back to the Nexus 5x but, for the very reasons laid out in this article, my next phone will likely be from Apple. That will be my first Apple product.

underscore_ku 5y ago
get a pinephone if you value freedom and privacy. apple ios is just as bad as android or microsoft windows
- shadowgovt 5y ago
  How is the app store on pinephone these days?
- messe 5y ago
  > get a pinephone if you value freedom and privacy. apple ios is just as bad as android or microsoft windows It's not as black and white as that. Other people will have different requirements and make different tradeoffs to you. The PinePhone is great if you value freedom, privacy, and have the time and inclination to make it work for you. Most don't, and an iOS device is a good compromise if you value privacy over freedom to run your own code. It's not perfect, but it's better than Android.
- user-the-name 5y ago
  The pinephone is good for privacy only because it is unpopular. It offers far, far worse security against snooping by third-party apps than iOS does.
  - goodpoint 5y ago
    This is provably false on every level. Android and iOS deliver plenty of telemetries to Google and Apple. Apps do plenty of surveillance as well.
    - user-the-name 5y ago
      iOS does very little telemetry. But it doesn't matter. OS telemetry is the least of your problems. That much bigger threat is that of third-party apps on your phone. And the PinePhone does absolutely nothing whatsoever to deal with that threat, while iOS has a huge amount of security built to prevent this.
      - Seirdy 5y ago
        > And the PinePhone does absolutely nothing whatsoever to deal with that threat, while iOS has a huge amount of security built to prevent this. Huh? Most mobile-optimized distros offer apps through Flatpak, which gives much stronger sandboxing protections than iOS through Bubblewrap. You can block access to the network, Bluetooth, filesystem (outside the app's sandbox), GPU, accelerometer, webcam, etc. Most distros also offer SELinux and AppArmor for protections outside the sandbox. Accessing stuff from outside the sandbox (like files) is done through portals, similar to the iOS "share" dialog or file-choosing modals. For non-technical users, all of this is enabled by default. Programs like FlatSeal let them toggle permissions on and off. Technical users can override permissions, spoof fake information, and dive into SELinux rules. With iOS, users can't block network access from specific apps, spoof sensor data, block GPU access, etc. You're only as private as Apple thinks you need to be.
        goodpoint 5y ago
        Mobian provides tenths of thousands of packages through the Debian repositories. The amount of spyware and trackers allowed into Debian in the first place is very close to zero. Also it provides firejail. There is no need for flatpak.
        Seirdy 5y ago
        I agree that sandboxing should be decoupled from the distribution platform. Unfortunately, normal users aren't going to use bubblewrap or firejail directly until better GUI wrappers are made. I also think that sandboxing is still a worthwhile pursuit for many FLOSS packages, since many programs--from moddable games to web browsers--run untrusted code. It also mitigates damage done by some forms of user and developer error (can't accidentally wipe a homedir if you can't access it). It's similar to the rationale for not logging in as root unless necessary.
- kaba0 5y ago
  While some people can manage with a pinephone, it is not “production-ready” at all. I do own one, and I am very very thankful to all the people involved with it, but it is simply not comparable to even a low-end android phone, let alone a high-end one or an iphone. It’s a hobby project as of yet (as even mentioned on the website). Hopefully once software matures there will come a pinephone 2 that will pack a more modern hardware and have full android app compatibility (there is no way around it, it is needed) that can be actually used as a daily driver.
C-x_C-f 5y ago
FYI you can install GrapheneOS on a Pixel (3rd to 5th gen)
- Karsteski 5y ago
  Or even more friendly, CalyxOS. Works perfectly, easy to install and very few problems in the 6 months I've been using it
  - kaba0 5y ago
    On which reasonably modern/performant phones can one install them? I did bought an iphone as my latest phone, because Google-riddled android is ridiculous (even though I like the ecosystem much better. Iphones can feel like some embedded software that only allows a few possibilities), but mainly because I could not find a phone on which installing some AOSP fork is safe, won’t delete important firmware (I believe quite a few mobiles will delete proprietary camera firmware)
    - Karsteski 5y ago
      It's mainly on Pixel phones, ironically. Has something to do with the security chip they come with
- bogwog 5y ago
  Just looked that up, and the site describes the project as > GrapheneOS is a privacy and security focused mobile OS with Android app compatibility What does that mean? Is it a built-from-scratch OS with an Android compatability layer (like Blackberry 10), or is it just an indirect way of saying they’re based on Android (like Cyanognemod/Lineage OS)?
  - eingaeKaiy8ujie 5y ago
    It's based on the latest Android (AOSP) + privacy/security improvements. From a UX point of view it's basically a vanilla Android without any proprietary Google code (which means no Google Play of course but you can install F-Droid). The main developer is a security researcher and many of his improvements have been accepted upstream to AOSP.
eingaeKaiy8ujie 5y ago
Apple may protect you from Google and Facebook but it won't protect you from itself. iOS is completely closed and you can't verify if it respects your privacy. Don't trust Apple. Open source software is a fundamental requirement for privacy. GrapheneOS is one of the best alternatives.
- kaba0 5y ago
  Which phone do you recommend going with it?
  - commoner 5y ago
    GrapheneOS supports Google Pixel 2 and later, but only Google Pixel 3 and later are currently supported by vendor security updates: https://grapheneos.org/releases https://grapheneos.org/releases All Google Pixel phones released to date receive vendor security updates for 3 years after the release date: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 A Pixel 4a ($349 new) would cover you until August 2023, and a Pixel 4a (5G) ($499 new) would cover you until November 2023 with better performance. The Pixel 5 is not a particularly good value for the price. Used Pixel 3, 3a, and 4 devices (along with their XL counterparts) are less expensive options with vendor support timeframes that expire sooner. The Pixel 3 and 4 (non-XL) models have poor battery life, so choose an XL model if you opt for either of those.
    - kaba0 5y ago
      Thanks! Unfortunately as you note recentish Pixels are not all that great, at least last time I checked. But perhaps at the next release I might change back (I really want to), if it’s suitable. But it is a real shame that other manufacturers make it very hard to replace the OS. The one other phone family I heard great things about is the One Plus, but they may also contain firmware that gets nulled.
howzitallworkeh 5y ago
Unfortunately, you will find iOS bad in different ways. For example: you cannot install NoScript, or anything like it, on an iOS browser. You must choose between "all JS on" or "all JS off", and third-party browsers like Firefox are crippled because Apple forces all iOS browsers to use their WebKit engine under the hood. The myriad of Safari "content blocker" apps are also pretty dismal, and often expensive. So ad-blocking is difficult as well. They're better about app tracking, but you might want to keep an Android phone handy if you enjoy browsing the web.
- tobyhinloopen 5y ago
  Ad blocking works perfectly fine, wdym?
  - howzitallworkeh 5y ago
    I mean that 1Blocker is terrible compared to uBlock+NoScript, and that's the best content blocker I could find after spending days researching them. Plus, it costs $3/mo or $40 for something that barely functions. Web browsing in iOS is incredibly frustrating and privacy-unfriendly compared to Android. I recently bought an iPhone for the app tracking protection, but the difference between Safari and Firefox is like night and day.
    - andrewnicolalde 5y ago
      Have you had a look at AdGuard Pro? I use it on iOS and I don’t notice any ads on the web, and it’s not really different from using UBlock Origin on Firefox in my experience.
    - gorbypark 5y ago
      Not sure how it compares to others, but a free option is to install Firefox Focus and enable its content blocking in regular Safari. I’m assuming since all browsers are using the same engine underneath that Firefox just installs a standard iOS content blocker and enables it for itself, but works for all browsers on iOS.
  - 5y ago
grishka 5y ago
You can use an Android phone without Google services. You don't even need root or a custom ROM for that — there's a "disable" button on the app details page of every Google app, including GSF. You can complete the initial setup fully offline, too. In case you do need Google services, but want to have a say about which and how, there's MicroG, an open-source implementation of some of the most used ones like GCM (push messaging). You can't use an iPhone without Apple services, period. An Apple ID is a hard requirement to activate an iOS device, it literally won't let you past that screen without one. Even after you're done with that, you can only install apps from the app store, subject to that unfair, opaque approval process.
- commoner 5y ago
  microG (a replacement for Google Play Services) includes a free and open source network location provider called UnifiedNlp: https://github.com/microg/UnifiedNlp https://github.com/microg/UnifiedNlp UnifiedNlp allows you to choose the backends your Android device uses to determine the location, without providing any data to Google. Options include: - Mozilla Location Services: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.ichnaea/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.ichna... - Apple Location Services: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.apple/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.apple... - OpenCellID (offline): https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.gfd.gsmlocation/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.gfd.gsmlocation/ - Radiocells.org (optionally offline): https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.openbmap.unifiedNlp/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.openbmap.unifiedNlp/ - Déjà Vu (offline cache using Wi-Fi and cellular data): https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.fitchfamily.android.dejavu/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.fitchfamily.android.deja... The easiest way to use microG is to switch to an Android distribution that has it preinstalled: - CalyxOS (supports Google Pixel 2 and later): https://calyxos.org https://calyxos.org - LineageOS for microG (supports all devices supported by LineageOS): https://lineage.microg.org https://lineage.microg.org - /e/ (some overlap with LineageOS, but also supports different devices): https://e.foundation https://e.foundation
notsureaboutpg 5y ago
I really have to decide if the customizability of my Android phone is worth losing my location / private data. I love Tasker, love automating boring repetitive work and other tasks out of my day. But is that worth losing all my privacy? Can't say...
kache_ 5y ago
I went through this and then realized that apple hardware is not meant for people who like to actually do things with their computers
- GoofballJones 5y ago
  So, all the things I'm actually doing on Apple hardware I'm not really doing? Hmm...good to know. Thx.
- jonny_eh 5y ago
  > do things with their computers Do we mean "do thing to their computers"?
  - Xelynega 5y ago
    You can do anything you want to you computers, Apple won't send men in black after you if you open up your device(although they will make the parts impossibly hard to get ahold of). The issue is that apple won't let me execute any code I want on the phone/computer that I own, which is preventing me from doing something with my computer that I want to.
- hackmiester 5y ago
  I'm not sure what my computer has to do with my phone, from a user's perspective. I find Macs increasingly irritating and frustrating to use, but I am extremely happy with my iPhone.
- isatty 5y ago
  Examples? I get plenty of work done on apple hardware and refuse any other devices for mission critical applications (daily driver devices are all Apple, because I know they’ll work, without me spending a whole day configuring it).
2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago
I'd like an iPhone except I can't sideload apps like newpipe. I can't control my phone. I've had Nexus 4, 5, 6, and Pixel 1, 2, 3, and 4.
abandonliberty 5y ago
Apple somehow found taking a privacy stance would be good for their profitability, and I hope that bet pays off. Between that and the M1, it's the first time in my life I've considered their products. Lots of answers here on how an enthusiast can circumvent these problems on Android. I'm not going to give my mom a pinephone or custom rom, and I'm happy that there's an accessible mainstream option.

I've had a string of Google phones going back to the Nexus 5x but, for the very reasons laid out in this article, my next phone will likely be from Apple. That will be my first Apple product.

underscore_ku 5y ago

get a pinephone if you value freedom and privacy. apple ios is just as bad as android or microsoft windows

shadowgovt 5y ago
How is the app store on pinephone these days?
messe 5y ago
> get a pinephone if you value freedom and privacy. apple ios is just as bad as android or microsoft windows It's not as black and white as that. Other people will have different requirements and make different tradeoffs to you. The PinePhone is great if you value freedom, privacy, and have the time and inclination to make it work for you. Most don't, and an iOS device is a good compromise if you value privacy over freedom to run your own code. It's not perfect, but it's better than Android.
user-the-name 5y ago
The pinephone is good for privacy only because it is unpopular. It offers far, far worse security against snooping by third-party apps than iOS does.
- goodpoint 5y ago
  This is provably false on every level. Android and iOS deliver plenty of telemetries to Google and Apple. Apps do plenty of surveillance as well.
  - user-the-name 5y ago
    iOS does very little telemetry. But it doesn't matter. OS telemetry is the least of your problems. That much bigger threat is that of third-party apps on your phone. And the PinePhone does absolutely nothing whatsoever to deal with that threat, while iOS has a huge amount of security built to prevent this.
    - Seirdy 5y ago
      > And the PinePhone does absolutely nothing whatsoever to deal with that threat, while iOS has a huge amount of security built to prevent this. Huh? Most mobile-optimized distros offer apps through Flatpak, which gives much stronger sandboxing protections than iOS through Bubblewrap. You can block access to the network, Bluetooth, filesystem (outside the app's sandbox), GPU, accelerometer, webcam, etc. Most distros also offer SELinux and AppArmor for protections outside the sandbox. Accessing stuff from outside the sandbox (like files) is done through portals, similar to the iOS "share" dialog or file-choosing modals. For non-technical users, all of this is enabled by default. Programs like FlatSeal let them toggle permissions on and off. Technical users can override permissions, spoof fake information, and dive into SELinux rules. With iOS, users can't block network access from specific apps, spoof sensor data, block GPU access, etc. You're only as private as Apple thinks you need to be.
      - goodpoint 5y ago
        Mobian provides tenths of thousands of packages through the Debian repositories. The amount of spyware and trackers allowed into Debian in the first place is very close to zero. Also it provides firejail. There is no need for flatpak.
        Seirdy 5y ago
        I agree that sandboxing should be decoupled from the distribution platform. Unfortunately, normal users aren't going to use bubblewrap or firejail directly until better GUI wrappers are made. I also think that sandboxing is still a worthwhile pursuit for many FLOSS packages, since many programs--from moddable games to web browsers--run untrusted code. It also mitigates damage done by some forms of user and developer error (can't accidentally wipe a homedir if you can't access it). It's similar to the rationale for not logging in as root unless necessary.
kaba0 5y ago
While some people can manage with a pinephone, it is not “production-ready” at all. I do own one, and I am very very thankful to all the people involved with it, but it is simply not comparable to even a low-end android phone, let alone a high-end one or an iphone. It’s a hobby project as of yet (as even mentioned on the website). Hopefully once software matures there will come a pinephone 2 that will pack a more modern hardware and have full android app compatibility (there is no way around it, it is needed) that can be actually used as a daily driver.

C-x_C-f 5y ago

FYI you can install GrapheneOS on a Pixel (3rd to 5th gen)

Karsteski 5y ago
Or even more friendly, CalyxOS. Works perfectly, easy to install and very few problems in the 6 months I've been using it
- kaba0 5y ago
  On which reasonably modern/performant phones can one install them? I did bought an iphone as my latest phone, because Google-riddled android is ridiculous (even though I like the ecosystem much better. Iphones can feel like some embedded software that only allows a few possibilities), but mainly because I could not find a phone on which installing some AOSP fork is safe, won’t delete important firmware (I believe quite a few mobiles will delete proprietary camera firmware)
  - Karsteski 5y ago
    It's mainly on Pixel phones, ironically. Has something to do with the security chip they come with
bogwog 5y ago
Just looked that up, and the site describes the project as > GrapheneOS is a privacy and security focused mobile OS with Android app compatibility What does that mean? Is it a built-from-scratch OS with an Android compatability layer (like Blackberry 10), or is it just an indirect way of saying they’re based on Android (like Cyanognemod/Lineage OS)?
- eingaeKaiy8ujie 5y ago
  It's based on the latest Android (AOSP) + privacy/security improvements. From a UX point of view it's basically a vanilla Android without any proprietary Google code (which means no Google Play of course but you can install F-Droid). The main developer is a security researcher and many of his improvements have been accepted upstream to AOSP.

eingaeKaiy8ujie 5y ago

Apple may protect you from Google and Facebook but it won't protect you from itself. iOS is completely closed and you can't verify if it respects your privacy. Don't trust Apple. Open source software is a fundamental requirement for privacy. GrapheneOS is one of the best alternatives.

kaba0 5y ago
Which phone do you recommend going with it?
- commoner 5y ago
  GrapheneOS supports Google Pixel 2 and later, but only Google Pixel 3 and later are currently supported by vendor security updates: https://grapheneos.org/releases https://grapheneos.org/releases All Google Pixel phones released to date receive vendor security updates for 3 years after the release date: https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 https://support.google.com/pixelphone/answer/4457705 A Pixel 4a ($349 new) would cover you until August 2023, and a Pixel 4a (5G) ($499 new) would cover you until November 2023 with better performance. The Pixel 5 is not a particularly good value for the price. Used Pixel 3, 3a, and 4 devices (along with their XL counterparts) are less expensive options with vendor support timeframes that expire sooner. The Pixel 3 and 4 (non-XL) models have poor battery life, so choose an XL model if you opt for either of those.
  - kaba0 5y ago
    Thanks! Unfortunately as you note recentish Pixels are not all that great, at least last time I checked. But perhaps at the next release I might change back (I really want to), if it’s suitable. But it is a real shame that other manufacturers make it very hard to replace the OS. The one other phone family I heard great things about is the One Plus, but they may also contain firmware that gets nulled.

howzitallworkeh 5y ago

Unfortunately, you will find iOS bad in different ways. For example: you cannot install NoScript, or anything like it, on an iOS browser. You must choose between "all JS on" or "all JS off", and third-party browsers like Firefox are crippled because Apple forces all iOS browsers to use their WebKit engine under the hood. The myriad of Safari "content blocker" apps are also pretty dismal, and often expensive. So ad-blocking is difficult as well. They're better about app tracking, but you might want to keep an Android phone handy if you enjoy browsing the web.

tobyhinloopen 5y ago
Ad blocking works perfectly fine, wdym?
- howzitallworkeh 5y ago
  I mean that 1Blocker is terrible compared to uBlock+NoScript, and that's the best content blocker I could find after spending days researching them. Plus, it costs $3/mo or $40 for something that barely functions. Web browsing in iOS is incredibly frustrating and privacy-unfriendly compared to Android. I recently bought an iPhone for the app tracking protection, but the difference between Safari and Firefox is like night and day.
  - andrewnicolalde 5y ago
    Have you had a look at AdGuard Pro? I use it on iOS and I don’t notice any ads on the web, and it’s not really different from using UBlock Origin on Firefox in my experience.
  - gorbypark 5y ago
    Not sure how it compares to others, but a free option is to install Firefox Focus and enable its content blocking in regular Safari. I’m assuming since all browsers are using the same engine underneath that Firefox just installs a standard iOS content blocker and enables it for itself, but works for all browsers on iOS.
- 5y ago

grishka 5y ago

You can use an Android phone without Google services. You don't even need root or a custom ROM for that — there's a "disable" button on the app details page of every Google app, including GSF. You can complete the initial setup fully offline, too. In case you do need Google services, but want to have a say about which and how, there's MicroG, an open-source implementation of some of the most used ones like GCM (push messaging). You can't use an iPhone without Apple services, period. An Apple ID is a hard requirement to activate an iOS device, it literally won't let you past that screen without one. Even after you're done with that, you can only install apps from the app store, subject to that unfair, opaque approval process.

commoner 5y ago
microG (a replacement for Google Play Services) includes a free and open source network location provider called UnifiedNlp: https://github.com/microg/UnifiedNlp https://github.com/microg/UnifiedNlp UnifiedNlp allows you to choose the backends your Android device uses to determine the location, without providing any data to Google. Options include: - Mozilla Location Services: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.ichnaea/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.ichna... - Apple Location Services: https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.apple/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.microg.nlp.backend.apple... - OpenCellID (offline): https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.gfd.gsmlocation/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.gfd.gsmlocation/ - Radiocells.org (optionally offline): https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.openbmap.unifiedNlp/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.openbmap.unifiedNlp/ - Déjà Vu (offline cache using Wi-Fi and cellular data): https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.fitchfamily.android.dejavu/ https://f-droid.org/en/packages/org.fitchfamily.android.deja... The easiest way to use microG is to switch to an Android distribution that has it preinstalled: - CalyxOS (supports Google Pixel 2 and later): https://calyxos.org https://calyxos.org - LineageOS for microG (supports all devices supported by LineageOS): https://lineage.microg.org https://lineage.microg.org - /e/ (some overlap with LineageOS, but also supports different devices): https://e.foundation https://e.foundation

notsureaboutpg 5y ago

I really have to decide if the customizability of my Android phone is worth losing my location / private data. I love Tasker, love automating boring repetitive work and other tasks out of my day. But is that worth losing all my privacy? Can't say...

kache_ 5y ago

I went through this and then realized that apple hardware is not meant for people who like to actually do things with their computers

GoofballJones 5y ago
So, all the things I'm actually doing on Apple hardware I'm not really doing? Hmm...good to know. Thx.
jonny_eh 5y ago
> do things with their computers Do we mean "do thing to their computers"?
- Xelynega 5y ago
  You can do anything you want to you computers, Apple won't send men in black after you if you open up your device(although they will make the parts impossibly hard to get ahold of). The issue is that apple won't let me execute any code I want on the phone/computer that I own, which is preventing me from doing something with my computer that I want to.
hackmiester 5y ago
I'm not sure what my computer has to do with my phone, from a user's perspective. I find Macs increasingly irritating and frustrating to use, but I am extremely happy with my iPhone.
isatty 5y ago
Examples? I get plenty of work done on apple hardware and refuse any other devices for mission critical applications (daily driver devices are all Apple, because I know they’ll work, without me spending a whole day configuring it).

2OEH8eoCRo0 5y ago

I'd like an iPhone except I can't sideload apps like newpipe. I can't control my phone. I've had Nexus 4, 5, 6, and Pixel 1, 2, 3, and 4.

abandonliberty 5y ago

Apple somehow found taking a privacy stance would be good for their profitability, and I hope that bet pays off. Between that and the M1, it's the first time in my life I've considered their products. Lots of answers here on how an enthusiast can circumvent these problems on Android. I'm not going to give my mom a pinephone or custom rom, and I'm happy that there's an accessible mainstream option.