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Except there is no reliable proof of the latter. Projection by the US, Canada and Australia does not constitute proof. [edit] Adrian Zenz does not constitute

by lucian1900 5y ago

Except there is no reliable proof of the latter. Projection by the US, Canada and Australia does not constitute proof. [edit] Adrian Zenz does not constitute a reliable source. Not only has his work been shoddy, he is a far-right christian sworn to destroy China. He doesn't even speak Mandarin. Of course the US, Britain, Australia, etc. would amplify his work, since it matches their material interests. Here's a thorough piece on the topic https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang https://www.qiaocollective.com/en/education/xinjiang

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
bhouston 5y ago
This type of suppression of "the other" is incredibly common around the world but it usually, but not always, stops in the current era once it is brought to everyone's attention. The point isn't to condemn the countries involved (e.g. country A is bad and always will be), but to get the suppression of the minority by the majority to stop by having others around the world speak up for the minority (e.g. country A should stop doing action B because it is wrong.) This is actually the fundamental principle of human rights groups - speak up for those oppressed when they can not effectively help themselves. It only appears to be an unchangeable condemnation if there is no chance that the oppression stops. In this case, like in many modern hard cases, there is a lot of denial doing on, both because some want the oppression to continue, and others because they identify with the country involved and believe that all those raising human rights issues are suspect.
- lucian1900 5y ago
  Sure. But at the same time, false claims of human rights abuses are used all the time to attack official US enemies. Remember the Nayirah testimony? It's merely one of the most visible examples. The world isn't flat with equal power wielded by all countries. Some are exploited and others are exploiters, at gunpoint. We must be precise about claims made, lest we help the exploiter.
  - bhouston 5y ago
    Countries denying their own human rights abuses is par for the course. Blaming anyone who brings up those human rights abuse as being an agent (witting or unwitting) of a geopolitical rival is also par for the course. The US itself has a lot of its own problems with systematic racism as well. But if I criticize the US on this front, should I expect a commenter to appear (like yourself) to tell me that this isn't actually an issue -- it is just being pushed by Russia agents who are only doing so because there is a geopolitics rivalry between US and Russia?
    - lucian1900 5y ago
      Russia and China aren't comparable to the US (and allies) in terms of military power, economic coercion or control over propaganda. This false equivalence is manufactured by US and allied media to protect their interests. It's also worth looking at the actual sources. Try to find something claiming genocide in Xinjiang that doesn't end up using Adrian Zenz or a NED-funded think tank as a source. On the other hand, for the US's atrocities we have plentiful and varied sources. Some of us have even felt the exploitation and destruction directly or through our families.
      - bhouston 5y ago
        China does have a lot of influence as well, it is important not to discount it. It will continue to get stronger as well as it becomes an increasingly important market for goods and services. For example, this apology by actor John Cena this week because he appeared to contravened the official Chinese line that Taiwan is part of China: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/27/john-cenas-apology-after-taiwan-comment-feels-like-a-forced-confession-free-speech-advocate-says.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/27/john-cenas-apology-after-tai...
        lucian1900 5y ago
        Or maybe John Cena cares about upsetting a large part of his audience, he apologised in decent Mandarin after all. It's unsurprising that imperialist media would twist a perfectly normal apology video into something sinister. If you talk to people both on the mainland and in Taiwan, you'll find the vast majority consider Taiwan to be a part of China. Many have family on the other side of the Taiwan strait, after all. Taiwan's local government still officially claims all of China as its territory. This is unsurprising since it's a direct descendant of the KMT, who retreated to Taiwan after losing the civil war to the PRC on the mainland. Only more recently a minority are starting to move towards the idea of Taiwan as an independent country; this minority is overrepresented in Western media.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

bhouston 5y ago

This type of suppression of "the other" is incredibly common around the world but it usually, but not always, stops in the current era once it is brought to everyone's attention. The point isn't to condemn the countries involved (e.g. country A is bad and always will be), but to get the suppression of the minority by the majority to stop by having others around the world speak up for the minority (e.g. country A should stop doing action B because it is wrong.) This is actually the fundamental principle of human rights groups - speak up for those oppressed when they can not effectively help themselves. It only appears to be an unchangeable condemnation if there is no chance that the oppression stops. In this case, like in many modern hard cases, there is a lot of denial doing on, both because some want the oppression to continue, and others because they identify with the country involved and believe that all those raising human rights issues are suspect.

lucian1900 5y ago
Sure. But at the same time, false claims of human rights abuses are used all the time to attack official US enemies. Remember the Nayirah testimony? It's merely one of the most visible examples. The world isn't flat with equal power wielded by all countries. Some are exploited and others are exploiters, at gunpoint. We must be precise about claims made, lest we help the exploiter.
- bhouston 5y ago
  Countries denying their own human rights abuses is par for the course. Blaming anyone who brings up those human rights abuse as being an agent (witting or unwitting) of a geopolitical rival is also par for the course. The US itself has a lot of its own problems with systematic racism as well. But if I criticize the US on this front, should I expect a commenter to appear (like yourself) to tell me that this isn't actually an issue -- it is just being pushed by Russia agents who are only doing so because there is a geopolitics rivalry between US and Russia?
  - lucian1900 5y ago
    Russia and China aren't comparable to the US (and allies) in terms of military power, economic coercion or control over propaganda. This false equivalence is manufactured by US and allied media to protect their interests. It's also worth looking at the actual sources. Try to find something claiming genocide in Xinjiang that doesn't end up using Adrian Zenz or a NED-funded think tank as a source. On the other hand, for the US's atrocities we have plentiful and varied sources. Some of us have even felt the exploitation and destruction directly or through our families.
    - bhouston 5y ago
      China does have a lot of influence as well, it is important not to discount it. It will continue to get stronger as well as it becomes an increasingly important market for goods and services. For example, this apology by actor John Cena this week because he appeared to contravened the official Chinese line that Taiwan is part of China: https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/27/john-cenas-apology-after-taiwan-comment-feels-like-a-forced-confession-free-speech-advocate-says.html https://www.cnbc.com/2021/05/27/john-cenas-apology-after-tai...
      - lucian1900 5y ago
        Or maybe John Cena cares about upsetting a large part of his audience, he apologised in decent Mandarin after all. It's unsurprising that imperialist media would twist a perfectly normal apology video into something sinister. If you talk to people both on the mainland and in Taiwan, you'll find the vast majority consider Taiwan to be a part of China. Many have family on the other side of the Taiwan strait, after all. Taiwan's local government still officially claims all of China as its territory. This is unsurprising since it's a direct descendant of the KMT, who retreated to Taiwan after losing the civil war to the PRC on the mainland. Only more recently a minority are starting to move towards the idea of Taiwan as an independent country; this minority is overrepresented in Western media.