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Estonian here. At Skype (10+ years ago) I observed, that members of large cultures (American, British, Hindu etc.) had real trouble adjusting to the predominant
by andreskytt 5y ago
Estonian here. At Skype (10+ years ago) I observed, that members of large cultures (American, British, Hindu etc.) had real trouble adjusting to the predominantly Estonian-based engineering culture. Probably because they had never had to adjust, commonly people adjust to _their_ culture as it tends to dominate large organizations. But once they did make an honest attempt, that was always most welcomed and gained them a large amount of goodwill. Our US CEO going to a sauna with 20 naked engineers...
I’ve also seen the “how are you” thing described in comments unfold.
A Hindu pm had the habit of sitting next to developers while they worked, sometimes putting a hand on their knee. After being politely explained that the size of an Estonian personal space is measured in astronomical units and that this was the reason devs literally scattered upon his approach, he immediately changed his behavior and became great friends with the team.
A US lady came to hr complaining about an Ukrainian dev approaching them inappropriately during a party. The hr-person, having witnessed the situation, explained that this was just their way of showing friendly interest and no disrespect was intended. A while later, a Japanese guy came to the hr person complaining the original lady from us had hugged them. Again, it was explained that this is just what Americans do.
Cultures are hard and take a lot of mutual respect to work through.
- solipsism 5y agoA Hindu pm had the habit of sitting next to developers while they worked, sometimes putting a hand on their knee Eh... That doesn't sound like just an Indian being Indian. a Japanese guy came to the hr person complaining the original lady from us had hugged them. Again, it was explained that this is just what Americans do Nope... We don't hug people who don't want to be hugged. The Japanese guy was right to complain, and the American woman should've been asked to be more careful. Expecting everyone to just accept anything because "that's what they do where they're from" is setting things up for people to be actually victimized and to feel like your company is fine with it.
- amazingman 5y ago> Expecting everyone to just accept anything because "that's what they do where they're from" is setting things up for people to be actually victimized and to feel like your company is fine with it. Your point is valid in the abstract, sure. That’s not what was said, though.
- solipsism 5y agoThe specific examples given are bullshit.
- psysharp 5y agoDude you have no information, I can't sincerely understand how you think you can have such detailed understanding of the situation.
- solipsism 5y agoWhy would I need more information? A guy was putting his hand on his co-workers' knees! Often enough that people scurried from him! It's clear the implication is made that this is just a "Hindu" thing. That's wrong. It's not a Hindu thing. It's offensive to say it is. And the idea that my comments saying so are being flagged is also offensive. Comments like Eh... Can't we just bomb them as usual? ;-) are the ones that violate HN guidelines and should be flagged.
- asymmetric 5y ago> A guy was putting his hand on his co-workers' knees! Oh my god!
- fsloth 5y agoI perceive "hand on knees" gesture either as an intimate sensual caress, or unwanted groping and borderline sexual harassment. Is "hand on knee" just a friendly way to position yourself when talking to someone in some cultures (so I know what to expect)?
- baldfat 5y agoImagine the horror of seeing two men walking holding hands because they are just friends. Many cultures have it where adult male friends hold hands and it just means that.
- reedf1 5y agoWe're gonna have a real tough time with aliens if you believe this!
- solipsism 5y agoI work with and am friends with plenty of people from various parts of India. Trust me, they can be expected to not put their hand on your thigh. Touching is common in some scenarios where they're not common in the US (e.g. between male friends), but only when people are close. I'm American. A co-worker who isn't close to me hugging me is slightly out of line. This just sounds like bullshit. Like any behavior at all would be explained by cultural differences, as long as the actor was from a different culture.
- scrollaway 5y agoNever seen such a lack of self-awareness in a comment. And I've been here quite a while! Americans having to adjust to other people's cultures. Imagine that.
- jk7tarYZAQNpTQa 5y agoWhat's next? Having to learn their languages?
- julienfr112 5y agoUsing their money ?
- filterfish 5y agoSteady on!
- lr4444lr 5y agoEh... Can't we just bomb them as usual? ;-)
- solipsism 5y agoWait... Did you not read the comment? It's talking about American culture...
- vinay427 5y agoMaybe I'm missing something, but I'm genuinely not sure how the comment you replied to is implying that? I read it as saying the US woman should have adjusted her behavior.
- scrollaway 5y agoIt's more that the comment is missing the point of the grandparent. Having worked across a lot of cultures, it's easy to spot how ignorant it is. And ignorance is fine but the poster is trying to decide how people Should Have Acted when they're clearly not in a place to really know that.
- Taniwha 5y agoI remember taking a doing-biz-international course - one thing that was stressed was that personal space is different for different cultures, you can back someone into a wall if your normal speaking distance is larger than someone else's. FYI for Americans a good rule of thumb is that Americans are comfortable at roughly an arm's length - reach out and touch someone's shoulder with your knuckles - after taking that course this became a company greeting ....
- helmholtz 5y agoI find a lot of comfort in knowing that these kinds of things are becoming more "official". Training seminars being organised, issues being discussed online, people growing up and spending more time being aware of these things before it's too late. It seems to me to be a sure sign of social progress.
- Taniwha 5y agoI took that course in 1985 ....
- sampo 5y ago> reach out and touch someone's shoulder with your knuckles - after taking that course this became a company greeting .... This greeting might not be perceived too well in Germany.
- 0_____0 5y agoJust don't do it with fingers outstretched
- solotronics 5y agoYeah in the Southern US there is a good chance if you reach out and touch someone with your knuckles they will think you are looking for a fight. If it's someone you are very comfortable with it would probably be taken as "playing we might fight" like you would do with a cousin or brother but probably don't do this lol.
- tren 5y agoIf you want to improve your understanding about these sort of differences between cultures, I highly recommend reading "The Culture Map" by Erin Meyer.
- ido 5y agoWhat did the Ukrainian do to make the American uncomfortable?
- RotaryTelephone 5y agoAnything ;)
- durnygbur 5y agoI would love to work in European international corporation acknowledging and respecting different introvert/extrovert personality levels, countless languages, completely different approaches in handling problems and challenges determined by one's origin and upbringing, different needs in socializing, e.g. Nokia at its peak. I dislike the American corporate environment, their soulless "corporate culture" media materials. There is this one American school of "how to become successful" and that's it. Productivity of a generation of Europeans is getting wasted on following some motivational bollocks by people after dozen of plastic surgeries and living in Florida or California.
- vinay427 5y ago> I dislike the American corporate environment, their soulless "corporate culture" media materials. There is this one American school of "how to become successful" and that's it. Ironically, a lot of people in the European country in which I live feel this way about domestic companies compared to the vibrancy of US corporate culture. Maybe you can elaborate on what you're referring to, preferably with less generalizing of a whole continent of corporate cultures as "European?"
- xwolfi 5y agoYeah but european companies dont exist, we re all different. Im French for instance, and we certainly dont work like the german. For us it s all about the game, the gossips, the fightings. Everyone is the CEO and it s hard to remember we have a job to do end of the day. In Germany I ve heard things are more...rule following. I work in China now - it's way more result oriented. The corporate culture BS we have it everywhere, it s part of the internal marketing we all have to do, and it s not really american: it s a way to try and adapt to a workforce that doesnt only focus on the result but also the way it s achieved. And ofc, it s a shortcut, because beyond the surface there s nothing. TL;DR dont idealize europe, it s a big place.
- tnolet 5y agoThis is so right. There is no European culture. Even neighboring countries with similar values (NL and DE) are wildly different with regard to workplace. I The Netherlands, work stops on Friday around 16:0-ish. In Germany, I had regular meetings at 18:00 on Friday. I honestly thought they were joking.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- xwolfi 5y agoPeople who go to HR over this... I am French and I work in China with a lot of Indians. It's been interesting for everyone to say the least. I swear and speak my mind way too much for a corporate Indian, so much that when I spoke frankly to someone higher than me telling him his process was useless and was going double our wasted time for really only the appearance of regulatory compliance, all he could say was ... thank you. He d never met a younger subaltern resist a stupid idea in India before, in public :D And of course it's neither our faults: in a French company we spend maybe more time fighting each other than doing the work, while in India they double their wasteful process every 2 weeks to a point they all do their job well but produce nothing at all :D
- ta988 5y agoI've worked in France, US and Finland (all that is super subjective). In France you talk and take informal breaks all the time. In US you occasionally take a long break with a colleague. In Finland the breaks were organized and everybody took them (some food, tea, coffee). TBH I prefer the Finnish way. I'm fine with the US one, but I dread the French way.
- chestervonwinch 5y agoWhat you describe as the "Finnish way" seems like it would translate better to a distributed company. I've been working remotely for over a year now, and I've found that those serendipitous conversations by the coffee-machine "French way" breaks just don't happen remotely.
- ta988 5y agoI don't have much experience with remote besides COVID and it was in US so I have no idea of the cultural differences.
- pretext 5y ago> Cultures are hard and take a lot of mutual respect to work through. It's always beneficial, not only when dealing with people of other cultures, to adhere Postel's law [0]: "Be conservative in what you send, be liberal in what you accept". [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robustness_principle
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- aasasd 5y agoAh! Never drew the parallel, but being an uber-introvert with no desire to be involved in any social conflict for the rest of my life, I naturally gravitated toward that behavior. “When people grow tired, they call it wisdom”.
- gryz 5y agoI notice if the majority behaves like this, then it could take a long time to build trust and stronger relationships in the team. Having a few not very self-conscious people around, is they are not too way out of bounds, helps to break the ice.
- LightG 5y agoYou mean respect for other cultures and sometimes unexpectedly different ways of living enabled better cooperation and good times? Who'd have thought? No intentional snark at this post. It was very interesting. But crikey ...
- animesh 5y ago> A Hindu pm had the habit of sitting next to developers while they worked Some of us do this. Many don't. I don't like touching others especially in a work environment. It is definitely not a "hindu" thing, so much as an Indian thing. I would chalk it up to lack of social awareness and no concept of space and personal boundaries. But, I don't think within our societies it is a bad thing. However, with enough cultural trainings and awareness learnings, we do better at this when we interact with other cultures. The company I work for has a lot of documentation on this for almost all cultures.
- kesava 5y agoWtf is a "Hindu" pm?
- fegu 5y ago- A US lady came to hr complaining about an Ukrainian dev approaching them inappropriately during a party. What was the inappropriate part? Seems useful to know.
- dagmx 5y agoDo you mean Indian instead of Hindu? In context of your post, it would seem Indian is what you meant, given you refer to everyone else by nationality. I see it as a common conflation where people substitute Hindu (religion) with Hindi (language) with Indian (nationality/heritage). But yes, as an Indian myself, we often have a different understanding of personal space and contact versus European/American cultures. It's not usually meant to be anything malicious, but it is very jarring in comparison.
- theshrike79 5y agoAs a Finn just the Google Image results of "Indian queue" make me anxious. I would never ever be that close to anyone in any situation unless forced.