6 ms·

There is no way to give a 3rd party app your location and not Google

68 points by the_laka 5y ago

olliej 5y ago
Sure there is - just demand apps not use google's spyware. your app does not need google analytics, it doesn't need to use google maps, it doesn't need google login (hell most apps have no reason to require a login, unless they're terrible web apps I guess)
- implying 5y ago
  Its deeper than that. Calling the fused location api contacts google's servers with location data. It is the only API that's well supported and documented. Using GPS sensors directly uses tons of battery, takes minutes to get a fix on most phones, and doesn't have access to some of the google-provided features like geofencing and wakeups on events. A "g-free" phone can get location, but it's purposely hampered.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - aembleton 5y ago
    > takes minutes to get a fix on most phones I've never experienced that. It usually takes a few seconds for me.
    - sitzkrieg 5y ago
      thats because its network assisted
    - yencabulator 5y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix
  - olliej 5y ago
    Oh so on Android the location services system provides non-anonymized info to G?
    - atatatat 5y ago
      Deanonymization is historically trivial, even if not built to be like normal.
sneak 5y ago
Same with Apple. Location Services constantly sends your location across the network to their servers - it isn't just passive GPS reception. I have location services disabled on all of my devices without exception.
- posguy 5y ago
  Apple doesn't provide this GPS trace to you unlike Google, but they do use it internally for Apple Maps. One tactic I heard from Apple Maps people in Austin was determining business hours based on when iPhone traces started showing up or left a particular location. Apple started providing much better GPS hardware in iPhones after they got serious about Apple Maps, as the quality of their maps is directly controlled by the data they get (GPS traces from users to determine what new points of interest are, stale data bought from vendors that is then integrated into the base layer, etc)
MikeUt 5y ago
> Google viewed the large increase [of disabled location tracking] as a problem to be solved, so it removed this setting from the Quick Settings pane of devices it manufactured, and it sought - successfully - to convince other manufacturers using Android to do the same > We don't know who all rolled over for Google. The complaint and employees said they didn’t have much choice as the only way to have Google’s key apps was to use their preferred design of Android.
klyrs 5y ago
I never have gotten a satisfactory answer to why Google Play needs access to everything including camera, mic, location and accelerometer data. But it sure chased me off of their platform...
- frankacter 5y ago
  If you are referring to Google Play services, there may be some confusion. This is not the Google Play Store app, rather Google Play services acts as a service provider for other apps you have installed on your device. https://android.stackexchange.com/tags/google-play-services/info https://android.stackexchange.com/tags/google-play-services/...
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Yep, that's the one. > location functionality including geofencing (notifying apps with the appropriate permission when you've entered or left a given physical region), and activity detection (e.g. walking, driving) Right. To consolidate location tracking (and several other juicy bits) as per this story. I ran without those permissions for about a year, before I got tired of opting out of location tracking for the billionth time and installed a non-G android
hilbert42 5y ago
There is if you delete Google apps from your phone! Of course, you have to root your phone first but that's easy. Still need access to the Play Store? Then use Aurora Store. If you still need access to the rest of Google's junk then tough. This story does apply to you.
- 29083011397778 5y ago
  > Of course, you have to root your phone first I've actually managed to disable all Google apps (including the Play Store, Google Services Framework, etc.) on my KeyOne without rooting it. It's possible with adb-disable, though results seem to vary by OEM. Hell, the only reason I went back is because I use a VoIP number, and calls weren't 100% reliable without a notification framework. The only issue is that Google's was disabled, and any alternative required root to grant it system-level permissions.
  - hilbert42 5y ago
    "though results seem to vary by OEM" Right, that's true. This happened to me a while back with a Huawei Honor phone when I bought the phone and put it aside pending having the bootloader unlocked. Unfortunately, in the interim Huawei withdrew locking privileges so I was left with the option of either paying for a bootloader crack or disabling the Google stuff and I took the latter option (this was a secondary phone and only used for web browsing so it didn't matter much anyway). In fact, this turned out OK, even though I couldn't disable Google Play Services I turned off all its permissions and I could disable every other Google service including Chrome (several other browsers substituted). Moreover, the phone had no SIM—so no account—as it connected to the net via WiFi to a pocket wireless modem. In essence, there was nothing to leak so Google PS had nothing to report anyway.
- cookguyruffles 5y ago
  > that's easy For a tiny fraction of the population this might be true, for the rest of the population it definitely isn't true. I'm part of that tiny fraction, and pissed away hours trying to find a LineageOS (or similar) build for my current handset. I don't consider the task easy Even if it were easy, it means giving up access to a huge variety of apps that expect and test for official builds. Anything with DRM for example
em-bee 5y ago
that's why i prefer phones running /e/ ( https://e.foundation https://e.foundation ) they work to remove all the google stuff while still providing a user experience that is more polished than plain lineage. i am a happy /e/ user for two years now.
- atatatat 5y ago
  Your phone breaks the basic security model of Android.
  - em-bee 5y ago
    how is that?
    - atatatat 5y ago
      https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html Ctrl-F Lineage
      - em-bee 5y ago
        /e/ is built on lineageOS but it is not lineageOS. the point of /e/ is to fix privacy issues, and therefore i expect that those issues listed for lineageOS do not apply to /e/. you can even buy phones with /e/ preinstalled, which should allow the bootloader to remain locked. (i didn't verify this, but at least for some models like the fairphone it should be possible to install /e/ with a locked bootloader.) privacy and security are not the same thing. while the article you link to recommends grapheneOS as a better alternative to protect your privacy, i am actually not sure that is the case. grapheneOS has different goals. i already wrote about this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26608697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26608697 i trust that /e/ will implement any security features that are necessary to protect my privacy.
        atatatat 5y ago
        > i didn't verify this You really should!

68 points by the_laka 5y ago

Sure there is - just demand apps not use google's spyware. your app does not need google analytics, it doesn't need to use google maps, it doesn't need google login (hell most apps have no reason to require a login, unless they're terrible web apps I guess)

implying 5y ago
Its deeper than that. Calling the fused location api contacts google's servers with location data. It is the only API that's well supported and documented. Using GPS sensors directly uses tons of battery, takes minutes to get a fix on most phones, and doesn't have access to some of the google-provided features like geofencing and wakeups on events. A "g-free" phone can get location, but it's purposely hampered.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- aembleton 5y ago
  > takes minutes to get a fix on most phones I've never experienced that. It usually takes a few seconds for me.
  - sitzkrieg 5y ago
    thats because its network assisted
  - yencabulator 5y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_to_first_fix
- olliej 5y ago
  Oh so on Android the location services system provides non-anonymized info to G?
  - atatatat 5y ago
    Deanonymization is historically trivial, even if not built to be like normal.

sneak 5y ago

Same with Apple. Location Services constantly sends your location across the network to their servers - it isn't just passive GPS reception. I have location services disabled on all of my devices without exception.

posguy 5y ago
Apple doesn't provide this GPS trace to you unlike Google, but they do use it internally for Apple Maps. One tactic I heard from Apple Maps people in Austin was determining business hours based on when iPhone traces started showing up or left a particular location. Apple started providing much better GPS hardware in iPhones after they got serious about Apple Maps, as the quality of their maps is directly controlled by the data they get (GPS traces from users to determine what new points of interest are, stale data bought from vendors that is then integrated into the base layer, etc)

MikeUt 5y ago

> Google viewed the large increase [of disabled location tracking] as a problem to be solved, so it removed this setting from the Quick Settings pane of devices it manufactured, and it sought - successfully - to convince other manufacturers using Android to do the same > We don't know who all rolled over for Google. The complaint and employees said they didn’t have much choice as the only way to have Google’s key apps was to use their preferred design of Android.

klyrs 5y ago

I never have gotten a satisfactory answer to why Google Play needs access to everything including camera, mic, location and accelerometer data. But it sure chased me off of their platform...

frankacter 5y ago
If you are referring to Google Play services, there may be some confusion. This is not the Google Play Store app, rather Google Play services acts as a service provider for other apps you have installed on your device. https://android.stackexchange.com/tags/google-play-services/info https://android.stackexchange.com/tags/google-play-services/...
- klyrs 5y ago
  Yep, that's the one. > location functionality including geofencing (notifying apps with the appropriate permission when you've entered or left a given physical region), and activity detection (e.g. walking, driving) Right. To consolidate location tracking (and several other juicy bits) as per this story. I ran without those permissions for about a year, before I got tired of opting out of location tracking for the billionth time and installed a non-G android

hilbert42 5y ago

There is if you delete Google apps from your phone! Of course, you have to root your phone first but that's easy. Still need access to the Play Store? Then use Aurora Store. If you still need access to the rest of Google's junk then tough. This story does apply to you.

29083011397778 5y ago
> Of course, you have to root your phone first I've actually managed to disable all Google apps (including the Play Store, Google Services Framework, etc.) on my KeyOne without rooting it. It's possible with adb-disable, though results seem to vary by OEM. Hell, the only reason I went back is because I use a VoIP number, and calls weren't 100% reliable without a notification framework. The only issue is that Google's was disabled, and any alternative required root to grant it system-level permissions.
- hilbert42 5y ago
  "though results seem to vary by OEM" Right, that's true. This happened to me a while back with a Huawei Honor phone when I bought the phone and put it aside pending having the bootloader unlocked. Unfortunately, in the interim Huawei withdrew locking privileges so I was left with the option of either paying for a bootloader crack or disabling the Google stuff and I took the latter option (this was a secondary phone and only used for web browsing so it didn't matter much anyway). In fact, this turned out OK, even though I couldn't disable Google Play Services I turned off all its permissions and I could disable every other Google service including Chrome (several other browsers substituted). Moreover, the phone had no SIM—so no account—as it connected to the net via WiFi to a pocket wireless modem. In essence, there was nothing to leak so Google PS had nothing to report anyway.
cookguyruffles 5y ago
> that's easy For a tiny fraction of the population this might be true, for the rest of the population it definitely isn't true. I'm part of that tiny fraction, and pissed away hours trying to find a LineageOS (or similar) build for my current handset. I don't consider the task easy Even if it were easy, it means giving up access to a huge variety of apps that expect and test for official builds. Anything with DRM for example

em-bee 5y ago

that's why i prefer phones running /e/ ( https://e.foundation https://e.foundation ) they work to remove all the google stuff while still providing a user experience that is more polished than plain lineage. i am a happy /e/ user for two years now.

atatatat 5y ago
Your phone breaks the basic security model of Android.
- em-bee 5y ago
  how is that?
  - atatatat 5y ago
    https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html https://madaidans-insecurities.github.io/android.html Ctrl-F Lineage
    - em-bee 5y ago
      /e/ is built on lineageOS but it is not lineageOS. the point of /e/ is to fix privacy issues, and therefore i expect that those issues listed for lineageOS do not apply to /e/. you can even buy phones with /e/ preinstalled, which should allow the bootloader to remain locked. (i didn't verify this, but at least for some models like the fairphone it should be possible to install /e/ with a locked bootloader.) privacy and security are not the same thing. while the article you link to recommends grapheneOS as a better alternative to protect your privacy, i am actually not sure that is the case. grapheneOS has different goals. i already wrote about this here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26608697 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26608697 i trust that /e/ will implement any security features that are necessary to protect my privacy.
      - atatatat 5y ago
        > i didn't verify this You really should!