5 ms·

The Future Web: Will Canvas Rendering Replace the DOM?

4 points by tmfi 5y ago

david927 5y ago
Yes the DOM allows for declarative exploration but that's not a good enough reason to keep it. It needs to go. It's plagued us for far too long.
- rektide 5y ago
  There's literally no system on the planet anywhere near as exploreable, as extensible, as extension-able. The DOM is the only software paradigm that has given users an honest fair shake, basically ever. There's a very vocal bitter camp of haters, that keep saying the DOM has to go. But they come bearing nothing. They have no suggestions. They rarely have well qualified, well explained grievances. Never ending brushfire wars, started by these little arsonists, sowing anger. It's tiring, it's so hard for those who do respect, who do think the DOM can be used well, to combat. The DOM isn't the highest most pleasurable dev experience. And plenty of websites do a terrible job with it. But it's crazy flexible, amazingly powerful, and the base ideas are simple & flexible. Calling it a plague is headshaking sad.
  - david927 5y ago
    You're delusional. We were writing better UIs 25 years ago. It's held us back since then. "Plague" is being nice. If there aren't great alternatives, blame VCs and greed. Literally almost no one is investing in new approaches. But that's all irrelevant. The DOM is worse than what preceded it and will, in another 10 years, be found in the dumpster of technologies that were so fundamentally flawed that you have to cherry pick to find something good to say about them. > The DOM is the only software paradigm that has given users an honest fair shake, basically ever. You need to research other software paradigms. Your ignorance is staggering. Also, which "users" are you talking about? Because 25 years ago, there were more non-developers writing applications than there are today. Normal people struggle to even update web pages, most of which are simple word processing documents. You're welcome to your opinion but I'm afraid reality disagrees.
    - rektide 5y ago
      your statement only holds want value if you can state what uos are better & fund someone to try to recreate them in DOM. people like to gripe & cry & whine but the number of times an team is given an out & out go to do the job, and had to abandon it is tiny & nearly unreported. and that assumes we take the teams effort as not misguided, which given the variety & many powers of the web, is in question for almost all teams. > But that's all irrelevant. The DOM is worse than what preceded it and will, in another 10 years, be found in the dumpster of technologies that were so fundamentally flawed you keep talking but you have nothing to say, no evident, just cruelty & cynicism & pissing. say something worth talking about. > You need to research other software paradigms. none of the other ones have had any impact.
      - david927 5y ago
        > you keep talking but you have nothing to say, no evident, just cruelty & cynicism & pissing. Listen, apologies. I came across harder than I should have. We want the same thing. We're both on the same side. We're arguing weapons, not the war. > say something worth talking about. I gave a presentation in San Francisco a little while ago to the Future of Programming meetup specifically about a better UI approach. I'm sorry you couldn't make it. My email is in my profile. > none of the other [software paradigms] have had any impact. How do you measure impact? Popularity? The Velvet Underground only sold "30,000 records but everyone who bought one started a band." Saying we can do better musically doesn't mean using Beyonce as a foundation.
        rektide 5y ago
        fair enough. I do feel like there's almost no evidence the dom is not enough, and I'm hoping custom elements radically rewrites the common mentality for the web, reveals a better truth, (& conjoins with linked-data). I see few limits to what can be done. but I definitely expect change. a lot of change. I just expect it to be intensive, I see the platform as already providing, but we are learning & adapting new systems& new ways to work it. I definitely am interested in other pro-user systems. to me, I like the dual, the page & the developer tools, but making the objects of the web more real more reified, less bundled deeply in js & actuating more visibly via interactions between elements on the page, begets an understandability & extensibility that folks can wade slowly into, easily. still a seeing behind the curtains system but one we'll get increasingly awesome at onboarding folks onto. if and only if the "haha the web is now vnc and your dev tools don't work" camp doesn't find the structural support mbers of this wonderful ever giving expedition & blow the whole thing sky high, 'to improve their industrial output.'

4 points by tmfi 5y ago

Yes the DOM allows for declarative exploration but that's not a good enough reason to keep it. It needs to go. It's plagued us for far too long.

rektide 5y ago
There's literally no system on the planet anywhere near as exploreable, as extensible, as extension-able. The DOM is the only software paradigm that has given users an honest fair shake, basically ever. There's a very vocal bitter camp of haters, that keep saying the DOM has to go. But they come bearing nothing. They have no suggestions. They rarely have well qualified, well explained grievances. Never ending brushfire wars, started by these little arsonists, sowing anger. It's tiring, it's so hard for those who do respect, who do think the DOM can be used well, to combat. The DOM isn't the highest most pleasurable dev experience. And plenty of websites do a terrible job with it. But it's crazy flexible, amazingly powerful, and the base ideas are simple & flexible. Calling it a plague is headshaking sad.
- david927 5y ago
  You're delusional. We were writing better UIs 25 years ago. It's held us back since then. "Plague" is being nice. If there aren't great alternatives, blame VCs and greed. Literally almost no one is investing in new approaches. But that's all irrelevant. The DOM is worse than what preceded it and will, in another 10 years, be found in the dumpster of technologies that were so fundamentally flawed that you have to cherry pick to find something good to say about them. > The DOM is the only software paradigm that has given users an honest fair shake, basically ever. You need to research other software paradigms. Your ignorance is staggering. Also, which "users" are you talking about? Because 25 years ago, there were more non-developers writing applications than there are today. Normal people struggle to even update web pages, most of which are simple word processing documents. You're welcome to your opinion but I'm afraid reality disagrees.
  - rektide 5y ago
    your statement only holds want value if you can state what uos are better & fund someone to try to recreate them in DOM. people like to gripe & cry & whine but the number of times an team is given an out & out go to do the job, and had to abandon it is tiny & nearly unreported. and that assumes we take the teams effort as not misguided, which given the variety & many powers of the web, is in question for almost all teams. > But that's all irrelevant. The DOM is worse than what preceded it and will, in another 10 years, be found in the dumpster of technologies that were so fundamentally flawed you keep talking but you have nothing to say, no evident, just cruelty & cynicism & pissing. say something worth talking about. > You need to research other software paradigms. none of the other ones have had any impact.
    - david927 5y ago
      > you keep talking but you have nothing to say, no evident, just cruelty & cynicism & pissing. Listen, apologies. I came across harder than I should have. We want the same thing. We're both on the same side. We're arguing weapons, not the war. > say something worth talking about. I gave a presentation in San Francisco a little while ago to the Future of Programming meetup specifically about a better UI approach. I'm sorry you couldn't make it. My email is in my profile. > none of the other [software paradigms] have had any impact. How do you measure impact? Popularity? The Velvet Underground only sold "30,000 records but everyone who bought one started a band." Saying we can do better musically doesn't mean using Beyonce as a foundation.
      - rektide 5y ago
        fair enough. I do feel like there's almost no evidence the dom is not enough, and I'm hoping custom elements radically rewrites the common mentality for the web, reveals a better truth, (& conjoins with linked-data). I see few limits to what can be done. but I definitely expect change. a lot of change. I just expect it to be intensive, I see the platform as already providing, but we are learning & adapting new systems& new ways to work it. I definitely am interested in other pro-user systems. to me, I like the dual, the page & the developer tools, but making the objects of the web more real more reified, less bundled deeply in js & actuating more visibly via interactions between elements on the page, begets an understandability & extensibility that folks can wade slowly into, easily. still a seeing behind the curtains system but one we'll get increasingly awesome at onboarding folks onto. if and only if the "haha the web is now vnc and your dev tools don't work" camp doesn't find the structural support mbers of this wonderful ever giving expedition & blow the whole thing sky high, 'to improve their industrial output.'