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But doesn’t this type of migration lead to brain drains? If you take the best talent from the developing world and move them all to America for education and t

But doesn’t this type of migration lead to brain drains? If you take the best talent from the developing world and move them all to America for education and then capture their talents through migration, you deprived the developing world of the talent they need to develop and thrive, which puts the developing world even further behind! Seems like if we want to help the developing world we need to train and equip their talented people and ensure they have the security and infrastructure to build their homelands into developed nations with established trade routes, etc. Or we can continue to exploit developing countries by snatching their top talent. It’s not modern day slavery, but it seems to be uncomfortably close in its exploitation.

zozbot234 5y ago
"Brain drain" is a net benefit to the source country. Brains are worthless on their own without higher education and the know-how that's gained from being an expat to a developed country. It's very much a win-win arrangement.
- afiori 5y ago
  It is a win for the home country only if the expat comes back, then they get access to an educated individual that would have been hard to train internally.
  - zozbot234 5y ago
    Many expats do come back to their home country, and pretty much all expats have at least some meaningful links and interactions with it.
    - afiori 5y ago
      Then that is not a brain drain, in many places (like my own country) very few people come back. In that case whether justified of not, whether it should be stopped or not it is not a "win" for the home country people are leaving. I am not arguing for or against, I am arguing that the pointed problem is not fabricated.
    - chirau 5y ago
      Many??? I doubt this is true. I am African, and throughout my college years, I established a very extensive network of African scholars in the US. I can safely say that more than 95% of them stayed in the US. The number for Africans is obviously higher, but even in my own college network, most of the international students stay in the US. The few who go back are either because they are rich or already have something lined up for them, or they did not get a job/visa to stay. Otherwise, for the overwhelming majority, the plan is to stay and most of them end up doing so.
      - zozbot234 5y ago
        Many African countries have truly dismal institutional arrangements that make return migration extremely unattractive. But when countries strive to improve, they stand to gain huge advantages from people coming back with good education and skills they acquired in a developed country.
        karpierz 5y ago
        What does it mean for a country to "strive to improve"? Do you expect a country to flourish when you siphon off the educated? People won't return until the country improves, and the country won't "strive to improve" until the educated return.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        > Do you expect a country to flourish when you siphon off the educated? Yes. Research shows that when more people are educated abroad (i.e. 'siphoned off') this tends to improve attitudes towards democracy and liberal values in the source country. This directly addresses one of the main factors explaining expats' attitudes towards coming back.
        karpierz 5y ago
        Can you cite a source here?
- newsclues 5y ago
  Let’s say you are a doctor in the developing world and you help your community. You move to America and work there. How does the source community gain from the loss of their doctor?
throwaway6734 5y ago
This is ridiculous hyperbole. Most of the talent coming to the US are able to actually leverage their talent and live much more comfortable fulfilling lives here. Why would you want to deny those individuals their right to wealth and a more comfortable life?
- newsclues 5y ago
  I don’t want to deny people anything, I want to distribute the talent and opportunity for success to bring up the standard of living globally instead of focusing all the success, opportunity and wealth in developed countries. Is it fair to the less talented people of a developing nation that America takes the best doctors and teachers? Doesn’t that harm the development of that nation?
  - throwaway6734 5y ago
    How much of your own capital do you invest in developing countries? > I want to distribute the talent and opportunity for success to bring up the standard of living globally instead of focusing all the success, opportunity and wealth in developed countries This is assuming that talent in developing countries will be able to leverage their talent in those countries. These individuals are more than capable of sending back capital that they earn in the US if they choose to do so. Also, global standards of living continue to improve due to the advancements made in developed countries. >Is it fair to the less talented people of a developing nation that America takes the best doctors and teachers? The US isn't taking anything, individuals are moving to where they will be most productive. >Doesn’t that harm the development of that nation? Possibly? Do the developing countries that these people are coming from appreciate their talent?
    - newsclues 5y ago
      There are security, infrastructure and supply chain issues, absolutely, but i think it’s solvable. Pick a single country and a few cities, and run a pilot project. Take a bunch of people and train them in the USA, and send them home with a security force, and construct the basic infrastructure required and slowly expand the city with clean water, food, businesses. But by bit build a better world. Or, continue to capture the best and brightest, and ignoring the brain draining of the developing world and hope that they figure it out on their own.
FredPret 5y ago
Your suggestion implies that the source country owns the brains, not the individuals involved. Should people really have to swim upstream all their lives in societies they don’t want to be in? As an emigrant, and the owner of a brain, I find that idea abhorrent.
- newsclues 5y ago
  No ownership, but responsibly to the community. I see many famous athletes who go to their hometown in America and invest in under developed neighborhoods they grew up in, and see that as a model for investing in communities on a global level. It seems better than taking the best talent and allowing the cycle of poverty to continue. Why is extracting talented humans from the developing world good for the developing world?
  - wrinkl3 5y ago
    > I see many famous athletes who go to their hometown in America and invest in under developed neighborhoods they grew up in, and see that as a model for investing in communities on a global level. But those athletes became famous and successful precisely because they were allowed to leave and pursue their dreams - had they been stuck in their hometowns they wouldn't have achieved anything of the same caliber. If it's okay to leave your hometown, why isn't it okay to leave your home country? The notion that people are beholden to the country they're born in is absolutely braindead. You're basically saying that a person born in a gutter should stay in that gutter because the gutter might benefit from it.
    - FredPret 5y ago
      Precisely. And there’s another dimension: what if the source country didn’t welcome the emigré? Should someone be forced to contribute to a society if they are not wanted? I was surplus to requirements in my birth country so I left. Others I know left their birth nations for the new world because they are gay or atheist or a minority and didn’t feel welcome. Talented or not, these people should be able to apply to move where they want to go.
sharadov 5y ago
Not necessary. I know folks who came here studied and worked (got tired of the green card waiting game), went back home and started companies.
deepnotderp 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring_theory_of_economic_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring_theory_of_economic_deve...

zozbot234 5y ago

"Brain drain" is a net benefit to the source country. Brains are worthless on their own without higher education and the know-how that's gained from being an expat to a developed country. It's very much a win-win arrangement.

afiori 5y ago
It is a win for the home country only if the expat comes back, then they get access to an educated individual that would have been hard to train internally.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  Many expats do come back to their home country, and pretty much all expats have at least some meaningful links and interactions with it.
  - afiori 5y ago
    Then that is not a brain drain, in many places (like my own country) very few people come back. In that case whether justified of not, whether it should be stopped or not it is not a "win" for the home country people are leaving. I am not arguing for or against, I am arguing that the pointed problem is not fabricated.
  - chirau 5y ago
    Many??? I doubt this is true. I am African, and throughout my college years, I established a very extensive network of African scholars in the US. I can safely say that more than 95% of them stayed in the US. The number for Africans is obviously higher, but even in my own college network, most of the international students stay in the US. The few who go back are either because they are rich or already have something lined up for them, or they did not get a job/visa to stay. Otherwise, for the overwhelming majority, the plan is to stay and most of them end up doing so.
    - zozbot234 5y ago
      Many African countries have truly dismal institutional arrangements that make return migration extremely unattractive. But when countries strive to improve, they stand to gain huge advantages from people coming back with good education and skills they acquired in a developed country.
      - karpierz 5y ago
        What does it mean for a country to "strive to improve"? Do you expect a country to flourish when you siphon off the educated? People won't return until the country improves, and the country won't "strive to improve" until the educated return.
        zozbot234 5y ago
        > Do you expect a country to flourish when you siphon off the educated? Yes. Research shows that when more people are educated abroad (i.e. 'siphoned off') this tends to improve attitudes towards democracy and liberal values in the source country. This directly addresses one of the main factors explaining expats' attitudes towards coming back.
        karpierz 5y ago
        Can you cite a source here?
newsclues 5y ago
Let’s say you are a doctor in the developing world and you help your community. You move to America and work there. How does the source community gain from the loss of their doctor?

throwaway6734 5y ago

This is ridiculous hyperbole. Most of the talent coming to the US are able to actually leverage their talent and live much more comfortable fulfilling lives here. Why would you want to deny those individuals their right to wealth and a more comfortable life?

newsclues 5y ago
I don’t want to deny people anything, I want to distribute the talent and opportunity for success to bring up the standard of living globally instead of focusing all the success, opportunity and wealth in developed countries. Is it fair to the less talented people of a developing nation that America takes the best doctors and teachers? Doesn’t that harm the development of that nation?
- throwaway6734 5y ago
  How much of your own capital do you invest in developing countries? > I want to distribute the talent and opportunity for success to bring up the standard of living globally instead of focusing all the success, opportunity and wealth in developed countries This is assuming that talent in developing countries will be able to leverage their talent in those countries. These individuals are more than capable of sending back capital that they earn in the US if they choose to do so. Also, global standards of living continue to improve due to the advancements made in developed countries. >Is it fair to the less talented people of a developing nation that America takes the best doctors and teachers? The US isn't taking anything, individuals are moving to where they will be most productive. >Doesn’t that harm the development of that nation? Possibly? Do the developing countries that these people are coming from appreciate their talent?
  - newsclues 5y ago
    There are security, infrastructure and supply chain issues, absolutely, but i think it’s solvable. Pick a single country and a few cities, and run a pilot project. Take a bunch of people and train them in the USA, and send them home with a security force, and construct the basic infrastructure required and slowly expand the city with clean water, food, businesses. But by bit build a better world. Or, continue to capture the best and brightest, and ignoring the brain draining of the developing world and hope that they figure it out on their own.

FredPret 5y ago

Your suggestion implies that the source country owns the brains, not the individuals involved. Should people really have to swim upstream all their lives in societies they don’t want to be in? As an emigrant, and the owner of a brain, I find that idea abhorrent.

newsclues 5y ago
No ownership, but responsibly to the community. I see many famous athletes who go to their hometown in America and invest in under developed neighborhoods they grew up in, and see that as a model for investing in communities on a global level. It seems better than taking the best talent and allowing the cycle of poverty to continue. Why is extracting talented humans from the developing world good for the developing world?
- wrinkl3 5y ago
  > I see many famous athletes who go to their hometown in America and invest in under developed neighborhoods they grew up in, and see that as a model for investing in communities on a global level. But those athletes became famous and successful precisely because they were allowed to leave and pursue their dreams - had they been stuck in their hometowns they wouldn't have achieved anything of the same caliber. If it's okay to leave your hometown, why isn't it okay to leave your home country? The notion that people are beholden to the country they're born in is absolutely braindead. You're basically saying that a person born in a gutter should stay in that gutter because the gutter might benefit from it.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    Precisely. And there’s another dimension: what if the source country didn’t welcome the emigré? Should someone be forced to contribute to a society if they are not wanted? I was surplus to requirements in my birth country so I left. Others I know left their birth nations for the new world because they are gay or atheist or a minority and didn’t feel welcome. Talented or not, these people should be able to apply to move where they want to go.

sharadov 5y ago

Not necessary. I know folks who came here studied and worked (got tired of the green card waiting game), went back home and started companies.

deepnotderp 5y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring_theory_of_economic_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/O-ring_theory_of_economic_deve...