5 ms·

Looks more and more like Safari is the "modern" IE

rini17 5y ago
In the IE days the standards were manageable and relatively fixed, it was possible to have a test suite and point fingers "not compliant!". Now we have "Living Standard"...
1337shadow 5y ago
As a webdev I can confirm that I have exactly the same experience supporting Safari that I had supporting IE 15 years ago.
- HatchedLake721 5y ago
  Can you share details?
  - wildrhythms 5y ago
    Everyone loves CSS grid layout now, right? On Safari (both iOS and OS X) Safari does not support grid-gap, i.e. "gap" CSS property. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/gap#support_in_grid_layout https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/gap#support... I use the fullscreen API to give prototype demos of a product to clients, and iOS [iPhone] Safari doesn't support the fullscreen API. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Fullscreen_API#document.fullscreenelement https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Fullscreen_...
    - nonsen 5y ago
      I believe you can use the PWA mode for fullscreen (Share > Add to homescreen)
    - HatchedLake721 5y ago
      Looks like gap support landed last month in Safari 14.1 https://css-tricks.com/safari-14-1-adds-support-for-flexbox-gaps/ https://css-tricks.com/safari-14-1-adds-support-for-flexbox-...
    - rootusrootus 5y ago
      > Everyone loves CSS grid layout now, right? As someone who does not primarily do web development... no. No I do not :). I am trying to get it to do what I want in Chrome and I find I hate it only slightly less than older CSS. Anecdotally, friends have told me I shouldn't use grid, I should use flexbox instead. Clearly I'm not meant to be a web developer. Some people like it, I gather.
    - deergomoo 5y ago
      It’s supported grid gap (mostly) for ages. It was flex gap it didn’t support until very recently.
    - robertoandred 5y ago
      Safari has supported grid-gap since March 2017, the exact same time Chrome and Firefox has. Your statement is completely false.
      - realusername 5y ago
        Gap support in Safari is only there since April 2021 (last month) and because the usage is still close to zero you can't use it. https://caniuse.com/?search=gap https://caniuse.com/?search=gap
        robertoandred 5y ago
        Gap is not grid-gap, and what was added was specifically for gap in flex containers.
- tarsinge 5y ago
  As a non-user of Chrome, I have the same experience browsing on Chrome only/optimized websites that I had when browsing IE only/optimized websites 15 years ago.
- flats 5y ago
  As a web developer, I, too, have had moments fixing a Safari bug that reminded me of dealing with IE in the past. But only passing moments, and I don’t blame Safari. Supporting multiple browsers is a uniquely annoying aspect of web development, and almost every developer uses Chrome for development (I’m a Safari user and it’s kind of a running gag at work). This means that for most developers, Safari is the main browser they have to support that isn’t the one they use for development, which is a recipe for resentment. Also, I bristle at this comparison a bit because Safari is wayyyyy better than IE ever was about adopting (and helping to draft) standards. They’re slower than the Chrome team and adopting new standards, but that’s because Alphabet and Apple’s business models are different, not because it’s an inherently good idea to adopt every new standard immediately (especially when many are focused on turning the web into a crappy replacement for native app platforms).
  - 1337shadow 5y ago
    I disagree, they have been lagging on webcomponents supported both by FF and Chrome for years
eitland 5y ago
No. This is a small but important detail: Chrome is the new IE. IE wasn't mainly a problem because it didn't support things, rather because it was - in the beginning - superior, but also had all sorts of non standard behaviour that Microsoft pushed and that made competition crazy hard. Oh, and also because they pushed it relentlessly in all ways including - as was later confirmed in court - illegal ways. Exactly like Chrome today except the multi billion fine and forced changes to Chrome is still only barely visible in the horizon. But we will keep pushing, won't we? For the record: I think I have contacted local authorities twice officialy over the last 18 months and maybe once over twitter. If two more people do the same here in Norway that is starting to make a difference. Same if ten people in France or Germany do it. Or if someone makes a story that goes viral or reaches the headlines somehow. Don't give up everyone! Chrome is an excellent browser but don't think for a moment that Google won't close it down the very moment it has finally crushed competition.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- realusername 5y ago
  > No. This is a small but important detail: Chrome is the new IE. In terms of market share and market power yes it's comparable, in term of tech issues, not really no, it's not even close. Chrome has a very good rendering engine, there's a few quirks here and there, I might have encountered some strange logic once or twice but that's about it. Safari on the other hand is really comparable in terms of tech issues and the main problem is that you can't even tell people to upgrade on iOS since they are stuck with it.
  - matsemann 5y ago
    > in term of tech issues, not really no, it's not even close It's not about tech issues. It's about pushing non-standard behavior. There are so many things Chrome implement and people start using, that other browsers have then to call them "standard" and make a similar implementation. But even worse, since Google also is controlling some of the biggest websites, they can use this functionality and cripple other browsers for not supporting their "standards". Like YT has been horrendously slow on Fx for years. Not based on Fx being slow, but YT having implementation details that happen to work well on their own browser..

In the IE days the standards were manageable and relatively fixed, it was possible to have a test suite and point fingers "not compliant!". Now we have "Living Standard"...

1337shadow 5y ago

As a webdev I can confirm that I have exactly the same experience supporting Safari that I had supporting IE 15 years ago.

HatchedLake721 5y ago
Can you share details?
- wildrhythms 5y ago
  Everyone loves CSS grid layout now, right? On Safari (both iOS and OS X) Safari does not support grid-gap, i.e. "gap" CSS property. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/gap#support_in_grid_layout https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/gap#support... I use the fullscreen API to give prototype demos of a product to clients, and iOS [iPhone] Safari doesn't support the fullscreen API. https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Fullscreen_API#document.fullscreenelement https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Fullscreen_...
  - nonsen 5y ago
    I believe you can use the PWA mode for fullscreen (Share > Add to homescreen)
  - HatchedLake721 5y ago
    Looks like gap support landed last month in Safari 14.1 https://css-tricks.com/safari-14-1-adds-support-for-flexbox-gaps/ https://css-tricks.com/safari-14-1-adds-support-for-flexbox-...
  - rootusrootus 5y ago
    > Everyone loves CSS grid layout now, right? As someone who does not primarily do web development... no. No I do not :). I am trying to get it to do what I want in Chrome and I find I hate it only slightly less than older CSS. Anecdotally, friends have told me I shouldn't use grid, I should use flexbox instead. Clearly I'm not meant to be a web developer. Some people like it, I gather.
  - deergomoo 5y ago
    It’s supported grid gap (mostly) for ages. It was flex gap it didn’t support until very recently.
  - robertoandred 5y ago
    Safari has supported grid-gap since March 2017, the exact same time Chrome and Firefox has. Your statement is completely false.
    - realusername 5y ago
      Gap support in Safari is only there since April 2021 (last month) and because the usage is still close to zero you can't use it. https://caniuse.com/?search=gap https://caniuse.com/?search=gap
      - robertoandred 5y ago
        Gap is not grid-gap, and what was added was specifically for gap in flex containers.
tarsinge 5y ago
As a non-user of Chrome, I have the same experience browsing on Chrome only/optimized websites that I had when browsing IE only/optimized websites 15 years ago.
flats 5y ago
As a web developer, I, too, have had moments fixing a Safari bug that reminded me of dealing with IE in the past. But only passing moments, and I don’t blame Safari. Supporting multiple browsers is a uniquely annoying aspect of web development, and almost every developer uses Chrome for development (I’m a Safari user and it’s kind of a running gag at work). This means that for most developers, Safari is the main browser they have to support that isn’t the one they use for development, which is a recipe for resentment. Also, I bristle at this comparison a bit because Safari is wayyyyy better than IE ever was about adopting (and helping to draft) standards. They’re slower than the Chrome team and adopting new standards, but that’s because Alphabet and Apple’s business models are different, not because it’s an inherently good idea to adopt every new standard immediately (especially when many are focused on turning the web into a crappy replacement for native app platforms).
- 1337shadow 5y ago
  I disagree, they have been lagging on webcomponents supported both by FF and Chrome for years

eitland 5y ago

No. This is a small but important detail: Chrome is the new IE. IE wasn't mainly a problem because it didn't support things, rather because it was - in the beginning - superior, but also had all sorts of non standard behaviour that Microsoft pushed and that made competition crazy hard. Oh, and also because they pushed it relentlessly in all ways including - as was later confirmed in court - illegal ways. Exactly like Chrome today except the multi billion fine and forced changes to Chrome is still only barely visible in the horizon. But we will keep pushing, won't we? For the record: I think I have contacted local authorities twice officialy over the last 18 months and maybe once over twitter. If two more people do the same here in Norway that is starting to make a difference. Same if ten people in France or Germany do it. Or if someone makes a story that goes viral or reaches the headlines somehow. Don't give up everyone! Chrome is an excellent browser but don't think for a moment that Google won't close it down the very moment it has finally crushed competition.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
realusername 5y ago
> No. This is a small but important detail: Chrome is the new IE. In terms of market share and market power yes it's comparable, in term of tech issues, not really no, it's not even close. Chrome has a very good rendering engine, there's a few quirks here and there, I might have encountered some strange logic once or twice but that's about it. Safari on the other hand is really comparable in terms of tech issues and the main problem is that you can't even tell people to upgrade on iOS since they are stuck with it.
- matsemann 5y ago
  > in term of tech issues, not really no, it's not even close It's not about tech issues. It's about pushing non-standard behavior. There are so many things Chrome implement and people start using, that other browsers have then to call them "standard" and make a similar implementation. But even worse, since Google also is controlling some of the biggest websites, they can use this functionality and cripple other browsers for not supporting their "standards". Like YT has been horrendously slow on Fx for years. Not based on Fx being slow, but YT having implementation details that happen to work well on their own browser..