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There is a difference between not relying on radar and having it there to provide redundancy and removing the thing altogether and presenting a single point of

There is a difference between not relying on radar and having it there to provide redundancy and removing the thing altogether and presenting a single point of failure that can cost someone their life. MobilEye for example can run on vision and radar independently and they have been for a while. The reason they don't remove one or the other sensors is to provide redundancy. When your tech can kill people, it's a good idea to provide redundancy.

nickik 5y ago
The redundancy is not free. The false positives cause the car to potentially react in the wrong way and that can also kill people. Tradeoffs have to be made in the real world. Why don't we force ever car to have radar, sonar, cameras, lidar and so on. Who cares what the cost is? If we can save a single life we should equip all 10 million cars that are sold every year with all of these things. This is not how safety works, if with vision they can hit the targets they are trying to achieve and radar causes issues, then removing it is a option. Radar also uses energy and is extra weight you have to transport and its extra cost. This is specially true that because of all their investment into vision their new pure vision solution is better then the old vision+radar solution.
- computerex 5y ago
  The phantom braking is not a radar issue, it's an issue with the vision system. That's why removing radar is such a monumentally stupid idea because Tesla's vision system has proven itself to be a pile of burning dog poop. If their vision system was actually good/safe and was truly unneeded then they'd have a stronger case for removing radar (but not a watertight case, because redundancy). As it is, their vision system sucks.
  - nickik 5y ago
    > The phantom braking is not a radar issue, it's an issue with the vision system. Where are you getting that information?
    - computerex 5y ago
      The internet. There are hundreds of complaints on the Tesla forums of phantom braking happening due to shadows.
    - computerex 5y ago
      Elon's rationale for pure vision: https://urlshortner.org/uwLlv https://urlshortner.org/uwLlv It shows his ignorance. What happens when their model misclassifies with high confidence and fails to detect an obstacle? A collision. There is a reason why every major company out there uses radar/LIDAR in addition to vision. It's because machine vision is a heuristic and it can and will fail with high confidence in its predictions. In those situations if you only have vision you are screwed. Whereas lidar/radar are based on physics. They are physical systems and thus fundamentally more reliable and consistent than MV. Thats why we use lidar/radar in places like the ISS to dock vehicles, because safety is critical.

nickik 5y ago

The redundancy is not free. The false positives cause the car to potentially react in the wrong way and that can also kill people. Tradeoffs have to be made in the real world. Why don't we force ever car to have radar, sonar, cameras, lidar and so on. Who cares what the cost is? If we can save a single life we should equip all 10 million cars that are sold every year with all of these things. This is not how safety works, if with vision they can hit the targets they are trying to achieve and radar causes issues, then removing it is a option. Radar also uses energy and is extra weight you have to transport and its extra cost. This is specially true that because of all their investment into vision their new pure vision solution is better then the old vision+radar solution.

computerex 5y ago
The phantom braking is not a radar issue, it's an issue with the vision system. That's why removing radar is such a monumentally stupid idea because Tesla's vision system has proven itself to be a pile of burning dog poop. If their vision system was actually good/safe and was truly unneeded then they'd have a stronger case for removing radar (but not a watertight case, because redundancy). As it is, their vision system sucks.
- nickik 5y ago
  > The phantom braking is not a radar issue, it's an issue with the vision system. Where are you getting that information?
  - computerex 5y ago
    The internet. There are hundreds of complaints on the Tesla forums of phantom braking happening due to shadows.
  - computerex 5y ago
    Elon's rationale for pure vision: https://urlshortner.org/uwLlv https://urlshortner.org/uwLlv It shows his ignorance. What happens when their model misclassifies with high confidence and fails to detect an obstacle? A collision. There is a reason why every major company out there uses radar/LIDAR in addition to vision. It's because machine vision is a heuristic and it can and will fail with high confidence in its predictions. In those situations if you only have vision you are screwed. Whereas lidar/radar are based on physics. They are physical systems and thus fundamentally more reliable and consistent than MV. Thats why we use lidar/radar in places like the ISS to dock vehicles, because safety is critical.