7 ms·

>It’s a VC’s job to keep the door open. Many were ‘blown away’, then passed before the second meeting. This is normal. I'm sometimes working with US-Americans

>It’s a VC’s job to keep the door open. Many were ‘blown away’, then passed before the second meeting. This is normal. I'm sometimes working with US-Americans and not being US-American myself, I feel like this is also a US-cultural thing? In important meetings with US stakeholders I struggle to read the room because everything is always 'awesome' and 'amazing', there's rarely upfront criticism. Honest feedback has to be pried out of people later at the bar. I think this is valuable knowledge for non-US people trying to get into US-style work and funding.

tptacek 5y ago
No, it's famously a VC thing, and it causes problems for ordinary US people as well.
- redis_mlc 5y ago
  To expand on this (for Non-YC situations): 1) VCs want to keep the door open for later by not outright saying "No.", since there's no incentive for them to do otherwise. 2) VCs follow the herd (need social proof), so they will often wait for that area to blow up, or wait for another VC will be the "lead." 3) VCs today would rather be late investors after the concept is proven and they can move hundreds of millions of dollars around to get even more hundreds of millions. Also note that VCs like to imply that they have integrity, but that's often not true: 1) They've had meetings to collude against YC (documented in the press.) 2) Silver Lake Partners revokes employee shares if you leave before 4 years ("In it to win it.") (documented in the press.) 3) Shocking personal anecdotes.
- verst 5y ago
  It's not just a VC thing. There is a greater delta if you didn't grow up in this particular US culture. As a German (15+ years in the US) formerly in SF now in Seattle I see big discrepancies in what I perceive as genuine feedback from coworkers or the general public compared to what I'd expect back in Germany. Of course VCs go even farther to keep all doors open. That to me is more of the same I observe from most folks.
  - tptacek 5y ago
    I don't agree, and think that the distinction between polite encouragement and the enthusiastic affirmations of VCs is important to understand if you're going to engage with startup fundraising. There is something specific and unintuitive going on in these meetings, and people from Seattle, San Francisco, Chicago, and Tulsa are routinely caught out by it.
    - verst 5y ago
      I don't disagree with you, it's just that I find your comment to downplay the significant baseline cultural difference of which you may or may not be aware (I don't know what culture you grew up with). This is something to which OP had referred but your comment essentially had been dismissive of by attributing this entirely to differing behavior of VCs compared to baseline US culture. A founder from a different cultural background seeking funding or advice from US VCs must understand the baseline US culture and then how to interpret VC behavior relative to that culture. EDIT: To provide a specific example: What is considered polite encouragement to a Californian comes across as very strong / enthusiastic encouragement to a German. Polite is relative to culture. Initially people unfamiliar with the culture may take the words of the random Californian or the VC at face value - both appearing equally enthusiastic observed this way.
  - cosmodisk 5y ago
    Reminds my previous job as a PM, where I had to deal with many nationalities. Germans were always: Yes/No, this is good/this is crap instead of 'well, you know,it depends,and it could be improved, considering everything it's not too bad'.
    - verst 5y ago
      Very accurate. Trying to explain to people this is cultural and not my individual personality is a tough sell though. It's a bit tiring having to praise things you don't believe in to provide honest feedback. In German culture the strong separation between work persona (with a shared mission on behalf of the company / shareholders / customers) and personal life makes it pretty easy to be straightforward at work. People don't define themselves by their job unlike in the US (or certainly SF) where one of the first questions may be "what do you do (for work)?". From my perspective US colleagues overcommit (say yes to too many things) but don't ask enough detailed question to design solutions that can be of high quality. I'm not surprised you'll find Germans frequently saying that something is crap :D Germans tend to be cautious upfront, asking many questions (to understand scope and to mitigate risks). This often seems unnecessary to the visionary leaders, but a tactician will understand the importance for execution. Nothing wrong with saying "No, we can't do that. But if we reduce the scope, or change this or that we could deliver something." In the end there are many cultural differences that are subtle but profound. Invisible to either side and usually expressed as what appear to be individuality / personality differences. It takes a lot of experience to understand which elements must be attributed to culture.
muzani 5y ago
I think in this situation, it's more that an investor could be impressed, but think it's too risky. She also brought up that she had a lot of angles on how to solve the problem, which made investors nervous.
irjustin 5y ago
It's a pretty common flow. Many people are "impressed" or "blown away" or "love the team" etc etc. The responses are all platitudes and I've learned to ignore things that are "positive feedback". Today, the only thing that says an investor is in when they sign and send the money. Up until money in the bank, it doesn't matter how nice or how tough a potential investor is. Unless you're the hottest startup, this is probably the most realistic way to treat all meetings and understand that it really is a grind.
- doggodaddo78 5y ago
  Blowing smoke up your ass. That reminds me of that call with Triplebyte where they said I "had about the highest score ever" on their screening test. I knew immediately they were full of it and totally dishonest. "Actions speak louder..." Don't buy any of it except as an act and going through the motions so they can pat themselves on the back. Real feedback means adversarial criticism, weaknesses, and examination of the business. However, they can leave their "passenger's seat driving" suggestions at the door too, unless they're really useful. If anyone is ever going down the VC route, they're going to be married to them. Who wants to be married to a liar who can't speak truth or honestly?
mrkurt 5y ago
They don't want to be wrong. And their reasons for not investing are usually "haven't seen enough proof" or "don't have conviction about the market". Reasons you can't respond to and are, usually, safe.
- joejerryronnie 5y ago
  The primary reason for VCs not investing is because their other VC friends have not yet invested. It’s like the old saying, “Nobody wants to invest until somebody invests, then everyone wants to invest”.
bombcar 5y ago
Part of it is they don’t want to burn a bridge with a person or a team. They may want to be there when the team gets a better idea.
ehnto 5y ago
It's something I have noticed as well. Also really interesting ways to essentially say "that won't work". Lots of fluffing, backpatting and trying not to tell anyone they are wrong directly. That was also something in Japan I noticed though, everything is amazing and great and it couldn't possibly be wrong just differing levels of great.
doggodaddo78 5y ago
Yep. I'm from the US grew up in the Valley but lived in the UK for a startup for a short while. It's both a byproduct of career hierarchal corporate obedience and social success façade (see also: modern campus culture of Ivy Leagues and Pac12s). It's absolutely awful for mental health or getting things done. More practically, it's a problem when people try so hard to be liked that they throw away respect by being too "nice." As such, they're not your friends or anyones friend, they're toxically-positive, inherently dishonest, and cowardly "yes men." It's a dishonest, time-/energy-wasting, and an untrustworthy cultural- and communication-style. People like these are a liability because they won't go anywhere far except to the diplomatic corps parties, UN-sponsored social ventures, and sing Kum ba yah. (Wantreprenuers and dumb money dispensers.) You have to be radically honest with yourself and others before you can attain and grow anything substantial. Besides, VC investment is only essential if it's a capital-intensive venture or velocity-constrained by lack of capital. Having more capital isn't useful in and of itself without a plan and a strategy to deploy it to something that's already established, like water on a seedling. This is why chasing VC is worthless: sales of viable product cures all, including bringing VC interest.
- kqvamxurcagg 5y ago
  There's a couple of books in this comment.
  - apples_oranges 5y ago
    I am interested in those books. Can you list some?
    - therein 5y ago
      I think he meant books to be written on the topic. But yeah, that was one insightful comment.
- op03 5y ago
  Very nice very nice as borat would say but the big piece missing in the rant is mindless ambition. Thats what keeps the lights on when shit hits the fan. Whether people are superficial corporate robots or without real friends or follow all kinds of meaningless ritual etc doesnt matter if they are driven. Why? Because thats who you end up relying on when competing against other people who are mindlessly driven. How are you going to compete with people who are more driven than you - "the do whatever it takes" brigade? Ranting takes away focus and thought from answering that question honestly to yourself.
monocasa 5y ago
It seems to be mainly a west coast thing. "Good vibes" always bordering on fake vibes. East coast seems to be more willing to tell you that your idea sucks, you suck, and your grandma sucks too. Unfortunately they're also way less likely to give your company a decently sized investment and valuation, so there's that.
- andi999 5y ago
  Is this before or after they hear your idea.
  - monocasa 5y ago
    Lol, depends on the east coaster.
inglor_cz 5y ago
Yep, if you want to hear a brutally honest answer, ask some Russians. If they seem to be grudgingly impressed, you are golden.
- hu3 5y ago
  That's my experience with Germans. They are as subtle as a chainsaw. I love it. They give me low latency instant feedback of the situation which allows me to act upon. It's an eye opening experience.
  - _hyn3 5y ago
    Israelis too. And New Yorkers. Certain fast-moving cultures seem to thrive on immediate, blunt, actionable responses.
biztos 5y ago
As someone who loves drinking in bars, but has had colleagues who don’t drink alcohol, I will add that this puts non-drinkers at a distinct disadvantage. Oh and it’s arguably unhealthy too.
ElFitz 5y ago
Here, in France, we have a very different take. Everything is crap. By default. Almost everything is "not bad", "fine", or at best "pretty good". You will almost never hear a French person describe anything as "awesome", "great", "fantastic" or "brilliant" (unless they’ve spent too much time in the US or work in startup la la land). But crap also is "not bad", "fine", or sometimes even "pretty good". So, how does one tell the difference? Easy! It’s all in the contemptuous tone, annoyed dismissive look, sneering smirk and distracted disdainful wave of the hand! What a great culture to be born in.
- refurb 5y ago
  Yup. The flip side isn’t all that much better. Been there too. As another post said, ignore everything said, the only thing that matters is when their money hits your account.
DawnEngine 5y ago
I have been involved with top management (>150 employees) on a number of projects for startups raising their seed A or B. Judge people by how many questions they have about the project rather than by what they say. In a society programmed to respond "I'm good" to "How are you", you gotta stretch a bit. Maybe people like you will make the difference. Best of luck in business.
twic 5y ago
There's a celebrated graph about it: https://imgur.com/gallery/8Afg58W https://imgur.com/gallery/8Afg58W

tptacek 5y ago

No, it's famously a VC thing, and it causes problems for ordinary US people as well.

redis_mlc 5y ago
To expand on this (for Non-YC situations): 1) VCs want to keep the door open for later by not outright saying "No.", since there's no incentive for them to do otherwise. 2) VCs follow the herd (need social proof), so they will often wait for that area to blow up, or wait for another VC will be the "lead." 3) VCs today would rather be late investors after the concept is proven and they can move hundreds of millions of dollars around to get even more hundreds of millions. Also note that VCs like to imply that they have integrity, but that's often not true: 1) They've had meetings to collude against YC (documented in the press.) 2) Silver Lake Partners revokes employee shares if you leave before 4 years ("In it to win it.") (documented in the press.) 3) Shocking personal anecdotes.
verst 5y ago
It's not just a VC thing. There is a greater delta if you didn't grow up in this particular US culture. As a German (15+ years in the US) formerly in SF now in Seattle I see big discrepancies in what I perceive as genuine feedback from coworkers or the general public compared to what I'd expect back in Germany. Of course VCs go even farther to keep all doors open. That to me is more of the same I observe from most folks.
- tptacek 5y ago
  I don't agree, and think that the distinction between polite encouragement and the enthusiastic affirmations of VCs is important to understand if you're going to engage with startup fundraising. There is something specific and unintuitive going on in these meetings, and people from Seattle, San Francisco, Chicago, and Tulsa are routinely caught out by it.
  - verst 5y ago
    I don't disagree with you, it's just that I find your comment to downplay the significant baseline cultural difference of which you may or may not be aware (I don't know what culture you grew up with). This is something to which OP had referred but your comment essentially had been dismissive of by attributing this entirely to differing behavior of VCs compared to baseline US culture. A founder from a different cultural background seeking funding or advice from US VCs must understand the baseline US culture and then how to interpret VC behavior relative to that culture. EDIT: To provide a specific example: What is considered polite encouragement to a Californian comes across as very strong / enthusiastic encouragement to a German. Polite is relative to culture. Initially people unfamiliar with the culture may take the words of the random Californian or the VC at face value - both appearing equally enthusiastic observed this way.
- cosmodisk 5y ago
  Reminds my previous job as a PM, where I had to deal with many nationalities. Germans were always: Yes/No, this is good/this is crap instead of 'well, you know,it depends,and it could be improved, considering everything it's not too bad'.
  - verst 5y ago
    Very accurate. Trying to explain to people this is cultural and not my individual personality is a tough sell though. It's a bit tiring having to praise things you don't believe in to provide honest feedback. In German culture the strong separation between work persona (with a shared mission on behalf of the company / shareholders / customers) and personal life makes it pretty easy to be straightforward at work. People don't define themselves by their job unlike in the US (or certainly SF) where one of the first questions may be "what do you do (for work)?". From my perspective US colleagues overcommit (say yes to too many things) but don't ask enough detailed question to design solutions that can be of high quality. I'm not surprised you'll find Germans frequently saying that something is crap :D Germans tend to be cautious upfront, asking many questions (to understand scope and to mitigate risks). This often seems unnecessary to the visionary leaders, but a tactician will understand the importance for execution. Nothing wrong with saying "No, we can't do that. But if we reduce the scope, or change this or that we could deliver something." In the end there are many cultural differences that are subtle but profound. Invisible to either side and usually expressed as what appear to be individuality / personality differences. It takes a lot of experience to understand which elements must be attributed to culture.

muzani 5y ago

I think in this situation, it's more that an investor could be impressed, but think it's too risky. She also brought up that she had a lot of angles on how to solve the problem, which made investors nervous.

irjustin 5y ago

It's a pretty common flow. Many people are "impressed" or "blown away" or "love the team" etc etc. The responses are all platitudes and I've learned to ignore things that are "positive feedback". Today, the only thing that says an investor is in when they sign and send the money. Up until money in the bank, it doesn't matter how nice or how tough a potential investor is. Unless you're the hottest startup, this is probably the most realistic way to treat all meetings and understand that it really is a grind.

doggodaddo78 5y ago
Blowing smoke up your ass. That reminds me of that call with Triplebyte where they said I "had about the highest score ever" on their screening test. I knew immediately they were full of it and totally dishonest. "Actions speak louder..." Don't buy any of it except as an act and going through the motions so they can pat themselves on the back. Real feedback means adversarial criticism, weaknesses, and examination of the business. However, they can leave their "passenger's seat driving" suggestions at the door too, unless they're really useful. If anyone is ever going down the VC route, they're going to be married to them. Who wants to be married to a liar who can't speak truth or honestly?

mrkurt 5y ago

They don't want to be wrong. And their reasons for not investing are usually "haven't seen enough proof" or "don't have conviction about the market". Reasons you can't respond to and are, usually, safe.

joejerryronnie 5y ago
The primary reason for VCs not investing is because their other VC friends have not yet invested. It’s like the old saying, “Nobody wants to invest until somebody invests, then everyone wants to invest”.

bombcar 5y ago

Part of it is they don’t want to burn a bridge with a person or a team. They may want to be there when the team gets a better idea.

ehnto 5y ago

It's something I have noticed as well. Also really interesting ways to essentially say "that won't work". Lots of fluffing, backpatting and trying not to tell anyone they are wrong directly. That was also something in Japan I noticed though, everything is amazing and great and it couldn't possibly be wrong just differing levels of great.

doggodaddo78 5y ago

Yep. I'm from the US grew up in the Valley but lived in the UK for a startup for a short while. It's both a byproduct of career hierarchal corporate obedience and social success façade (see also: modern campus culture of Ivy Leagues and Pac12s). It's absolutely awful for mental health or getting things done. More practically, it's a problem when people try so hard to be liked that they throw away respect by being too "nice." As such, they're not your friends or anyones friend, they're toxically-positive, inherently dishonest, and cowardly "yes men." It's a dishonest, time-/energy-wasting, and an untrustworthy cultural- and communication-style. People like these are a liability because they won't go anywhere far except to the diplomatic corps parties, UN-sponsored social ventures, and sing Kum ba yah. (Wantreprenuers and dumb money dispensers.) You have to be radically honest with yourself and others before you can attain and grow anything substantial. Besides, VC investment is only essential if it's a capital-intensive venture or velocity-constrained by lack of capital. Having more capital isn't useful in and of itself without a plan and a strategy to deploy it to something that's already established, like water on a seedling. This is why chasing VC is worthless: sales of viable product cures all, including bringing VC interest.

kqvamxurcagg 5y ago
There's a couple of books in this comment.
- apples_oranges 5y ago
  I am interested in those books. Can you list some?
  - therein 5y ago
    I think he meant books to be written on the topic. But yeah, that was one insightful comment.
op03 5y ago
Very nice very nice as borat would say but the big piece missing in the rant is mindless ambition. Thats what keeps the lights on when shit hits the fan. Whether people are superficial corporate robots or without real friends or follow all kinds of meaningless ritual etc doesnt matter if they are driven. Why? Because thats who you end up relying on when competing against other people who are mindlessly driven. How are you going to compete with people who are more driven than you - "the do whatever it takes" brigade? Ranting takes away focus and thought from answering that question honestly to yourself.

monocasa 5y ago

It seems to be mainly a west coast thing. "Good vibes" always bordering on fake vibes. East coast seems to be more willing to tell you that your idea sucks, you suck, and your grandma sucks too. Unfortunately they're also way less likely to give your company a decently sized investment and valuation, so there's that.

andi999 5y ago
Is this before or after they hear your idea.
- monocasa 5y ago
  Lol, depends on the east coaster.

inglor_cz 5y ago

Yep, if you want to hear a brutally honest answer, ask some Russians. If they seem to be grudgingly impressed, you are golden.

hu3 5y ago
That's my experience with Germans. They are as subtle as a chainsaw. I love it. They give me low latency instant feedback of the situation which allows me to act upon. It's an eye opening experience.
- _hyn3 5y ago
  Israelis too. And New Yorkers. Certain fast-moving cultures seem to thrive on immediate, blunt, actionable responses.

biztos 5y ago

As someone who loves drinking in bars, but has had colleagues who don’t drink alcohol, I will add that this puts non-drinkers at a distinct disadvantage. Oh and it’s arguably unhealthy too.

ElFitz 5y ago

Here, in France, we have a very different take. Everything is crap. By default. Almost everything is "not bad", "fine", or at best "pretty good". You will almost never hear a French person describe anything as "awesome", "great", "fantastic" or "brilliant" (unless they’ve spent too much time in the US or work in startup la la land). But crap also is "not bad", "fine", or sometimes even "pretty good". So, how does one tell the difference? Easy! It’s all in the contemptuous tone, annoyed dismissive look, sneering smirk and distracted disdainful wave of the hand! What a great culture to be born in.

refurb 5y ago
Yup. The flip side isn’t all that much better. Been there too. As another post said, ignore everything said, the only thing that matters is when their money hits your account.

DawnEngine 5y ago

I have been involved with top management (>150 employees) on a number of projects for startups raising their seed A or B. Judge people by how many questions they have about the project rather than by what they say. In a society programmed to respond "I'm good" to "How are you", you gotta stretch a bit. Maybe people like you will make the difference. Best of luck in business.

twic 5y ago

There's a celebrated graph about it: https://imgur.com/gallery/8Afg58W https://imgur.com/gallery/8Afg58W