7 ms·

Stuffed Dormouse and Fish Gut Sauce: The Flavors of Pompeii (2019)

43 points by diodorus 5y ago

setBoolean 5y ago
Fish sauce really is a gift of the gods and it saddens me that this pinnacle of flavour is nearly lost in the western world.
- jayd16 5y ago
  People see fish sauce and are shocked but Worcestershire sauce is a fish sauce.
  - setBoolean 5y ago
    Worcestershire sauce is delicious too but to be fair there are a lot of variants that omit the fish part.
    - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
      Lea and Perrins definitely used fermented fish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSiQAVzT1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSiQAVzT1c
  - mc32 5y ago
    I had to look up the ingredients[1]: Anchovies, Tamarind paste and Beer among others. [1]https://www.thespruceeats.com/homemade-worcestershire-sauce-recipe-1806795 https://www.thespruceeats.com/homemade-worcestershire-sauce-...
  - thaumasiotes 5y ago
    Sure, in the sense that Caesar dressing is a fish sauce. The parts of Worcestershire sauce that you can taste are the vinegar and sugar.
    - wearywanderer 5y ago
      Well you could always crack open a can of anchovies to augment the sauce. It's not as though anchovies are lost to time.
      - desperate 5y ago
        Not yet anyway...
    - peteretep 5y ago
      Maybe I'm just too "in it" from having eaten Thai fish-sauce almost every day for many many years, but I'm not convinced that fish sauce tastes of fish any more than soy sauce tastes of soy or red wine vinegar tastes of red wine. It tastes of salt and umami and ... tastes like fish sauce.
      - __david__ 5y ago
        I think you’re “in it”. I had a partner that loved fish sauce and insisted it didn’t taste “fishy”, but to me, who didn’t grow up with it and generally dislikes “fish” taste, it tastes extremely fishy.
        13of40 5y ago
        IMO, fish sauce (and I'm picturing the red boat one my wife buys) is like manna from heaven when there's just a hint of it. Too much, and it starts to taste a little...poopy.
      - thaumasiotes 5y ago
        I use fish sauce in small amounts to make fried rice. (Also present, in large amounts: oil, soy sauce, garlic.) It has no flavor that I can particularly detect at the end of the process. The smell when you open the bottle is overwhelming, and terrible. I wouldn't venture to sample it directly.
    - mxcrossr 5y ago
      I’ve started making Caesar dressing from scratch when I want it, and the anchovies can really shine when you do it yourself.
  - Jetrel 5y ago
    Personally, I'm holding out until scientists finally isolate the ingredients of Bestchestershire sauce.
- nmfisher 5y ago
  On the flipside, I’m an otherwise adventurous eater but I simply can’t stand the taste of fish sauce. It’s why I now mostly avoid Thai food as a whole, the fish sauce is nauseating and overpowering.
- cycrutchfield 5y ago
  It is still used in Italian cuisine - colatura di alici.
- duxup 5y ago
  I see it used in recipes in the west often. I'm making a pork recipe tomorrow that uses it.
- spoonjim 5y ago
  Southern US recipes add it to a lot of stuff.
gjffkk 5y ago
Yuk
Badfood 5y ago
I'm vegan on the whole but I still use a splash of fish sauce from time to time. Good stuff, and largely made from parts of fish which would otherwise go to waste
teleforce 5y ago
Fun facts, the closest to ancient Roman fish sauce (garum) in ingredients today is probably Vietnamese fish sauce[1][2]. This is probably not only the source for the umami flavor but also the natural salty ingredient without the modern salt. This is not surprising since majority of Vietnam today (Central and South Vietnam) was ruled by Champa kingdoms until 16th century but Chams people were then evicted by the Nguyen lords from the North. Chams, Malay and Indonesian languages (top ten most popular languages in the world) has the word "garam", for salt and it is probably originated from the word garum. If you want how ancient Pompeii lived and ate, please check this excellent video by Absolute History[3]. [1]https://scmp.com/lifestyle/food-drink/article/3094604/did-fish-sauce-vietnam-come-ancient-rome-silk-road https://scmp.com/lifestyle/food-drink/article/3094604/did-fi... [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSw7eoBbM0U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSw7eoBbM0U
- buescher 5y ago
  They still make a fish sauce in Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_alici https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_alici
- codesnik 5y ago
  garam and garum do seem similar, but how latin word for something lost in medieval times could've come to indonesian language?
  - farrelmahaztra 5y ago
    I'd imagine through trade, much like how it seems to be the explanation for why most languages call "tea" some variation of te, cha, or chai.
    - teleforce 5y ago
      Yes most probably through trade. Check the provided video link on the ancient Pompeii, based on the archeological evidences they had trading activities with other Asian countries including India. It is already known that the Chams already settled in Vietnam during Pompeii time. Their ports popularity at the time probably similar to Singapore today and Singapore is currently the busiest port in the world. Another fun fact is that the Chams ancient capital city is called Simhapura or Lion City, and Singapore original name is Singapura. My gut feeling is that Champa was either playing the role of Singapore today or conquered Singapore, at the time of Pompeii.
el_benhameen 5y ago
There’s a fellow on youtube who makes dishes from antiquity, including garum. Worth a watch if you’re into cooking, or history, or both. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5S7Bb0Qg-oE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5S7Bb0Qg-oE
riffraff 5y ago
worth noting that Dormouse was (is) still eaten in modern times. For example, this[0] made the news in Italy about ten years ago when a group of poachers was caught hunting and serving them (the dormouse is a protected species, but it's also a traditional food). [0] warning: a bit graphic https://www.promiseland.it/topo-bollito/ https://www.promiseland.it/topo-bollito/
mrslave 5y ago
We loved reading this at work yesterday. Other gems posted to HN in the last year: Archaeologists uncover ancient street food shop in Pompeii (reuters.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25543742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25543742 Reconstructing the Menu of a Pub in Ancient Pompeii (atlasobscura.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26210774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26210774 The latter includes some recipies too!
perl4ever 5y ago
The Romans also cooked with laser and rocket: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruca_vesicaria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruca_vesicaria
haspoken 5y ago
http://archive.is/a9oS7 http://archive.is/a9oS7

43 points by diodorus 5y ago

Fish sauce really is a gift of the gods and it saddens me that this pinnacle of flavour is nearly lost in the western world.

jayd16 5y ago
People see fish sauce and are shocked but Worcestershire sauce is a fish sauce.
- setBoolean 5y ago
  Worcestershire sauce is delicious too but to be fair there are a lot of variants that omit the fish part.
  - kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
    Lea and Perrins definitely used fermented fish: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSiQAVzT1c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4WSiQAVzT1c
- mc32 5y ago
  I had to look up the ingredients[1]: Anchovies, Tamarind paste and Beer among others. [1]https://www.thespruceeats.com/homemade-worcestershire-sauce-recipe-1806795 https://www.thespruceeats.com/homemade-worcestershire-sauce-...
- thaumasiotes 5y ago
  Sure, in the sense that Caesar dressing is a fish sauce. The parts of Worcestershire sauce that you can taste are the vinegar and sugar.
  - wearywanderer 5y ago
    Well you could always crack open a can of anchovies to augment the sauce. It's not as though anchovies are lost to time.
    - desperate 5y ago
      Not yet anyway...
  - peteretep 5y ago
    Maybe I'm just too "in it" from having eaten Thai fish-sauce almost every day for many many years, but I'm not convinced that fish sauce tastes of fish any more than soy sauce tastes of soy or red wine vinegar tastes of red wine. It tastes of salt and umami and ... tastes like fish sauce.
    - __david__ 5y ago
      I think you’re “in it”. I had a partner that loved fish sauce and insisted it didn’t taste “fishy”, but to me, who didn’t grow up with it and generally dislikes “fish” taste, it tastes extremely fishy.
      - 13of40 5y ago
        IMO, fish sauce (and I'm picturing the red boat one my wife buys) is like manna from heaven when there's just a hint of it. Too much, and it starts to taste a little...poopy.
    - thaumasiotes 5y ago
      I use fish sauce in small amounts to make fried rice. (Also present, in large amounts: oil, soy sauce, garlic.) It has no flavor that I can particularly detect at the end of the process. The smell when you open the bottle is overwhelming, and terrible. I wouldn't venture to sample it directly.
  - mxcrossr 5y ago
    I’ve started making Caesar dressing from scratch when I want it, and the anchovies can really shine when you do it yourself.
- Jetrel 5y ago
  Personally, I'm holding out until scientists finally isolate the ingredients of Bestchestershire sauce.
nmfisher 5y ago
On the flipside, I’m an otherwise adventurous eater but I simply can’t stand the taste of fish sauce. It’s why I now mostly avoid Thai food as a whole, the fish sauce is nauseating and overpowering.
cycrutchfield 5y ago
It is still used in Italian cuisine - colatura di alici.
duxup 5y ago
I see it used in recipes in the west often. I'm making a pork recipe tomorrow that uses it.
spoonjim 5y ago
Southern US recipes add it to a lot of stuff.

gjffkk 5y ago

Yuk

Badfood 5y ago

I'm vegan on the whole but I still use a splash of fish sauce from time to time. Good stuff, and largely made from parts of fish which would otherwise go to waste

teleforce 5y ago

Fun facts, the closest to ancient Roman fish sauce (garum) in ingredients today is probably Vietnamese fish sauce[1][2]. This is probably not only the source for the umami flavor but also the natural salty ingredient without the modern salt. This is not surprising since majority of Vietnam today (Central and South Vietnam) was ruled by Champa kingdoms until 16th century but Chams people were then evicted by the Nguyen lords from the North. Chams, Malay and Indonesian languages (top ten most popular languages in the world) has the word "garam", for salt and it is probably originated from the word garum. If you want how ancient Pompeii lived and ate, please check this excellent video by Absolute History[3]. [1]https://scmp.com/lifestyle/food-drink/article/3094604/did-fish-sauce-vietnam-come-ancient-rome-silk-road https://scmp.com/lifestyle/food-drink/article/3094604/did-fi... [2]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum [3]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSw7eoBbM0U https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSw7eoBbM0U

buescher 5y ago
They still make a fish sauce in Italy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_alici https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Colatura_di_alici
codesnik 5y ago
garam and garum do seem similar, but how latin word for something lost in medieval times could've come to indonesian language?
- farrelmahaztra 5y ago
  I'd imagine through trade, much like how it seems to be the explanation for why most languages call "tea" some variation of te, cha, or chai.
  - teleforce 5y ago
    Yes most probably through trade. Check the provided video link on the ancient Pompeii, based on the archeological evidences they had trading activities with other Asian countries including India. It is already known that the Chams already settled in Vietnam during Pompeii time. Their ports popularity at the time probably similar to Singapore today and Singapore is currently the busiest port in the world. Another fun fact is that the Chams ancient capital city is called Simhapura or Lion City, and Singapore original name is Singapura. My gut feeling is that Champa was either playing the role of Singapore today or conquered Singapore, at the time of Pompeii.

el_benhameen 5y ago

There’s a fellow on youtube who makes dishes from antiquity, including garum. Worth a watch if you’re into cooking, or history, or both. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5S7Bb0Qg-oE https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=5S7Bb0Qg-oE

riffraff 5y ago

worth noting that Dormouse was (is) still eaten in modern times. For example, this[0] made the news in Italy about ten years ago when a group of poachers was caught hunting and serving them (the dormouse is a protected species, but it's also a traditional food). [0] warning: a bit graphic https://www.promiseland.it/topo-bollito/ https://www.promiseland.it/topo-bollito/

mrslave 5y ago

We loved reading this at work yesterday. Other gems posted to HN in the last year: Archaeologists uncover ancient street food shop in Pompeii (reuters.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25543742 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=25543742 Reconstructing the Menu of a Pub in Ancient Pompeii (atlasobscura.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26210774 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26210774 The latter includes some recipies too!

perl4ever 5y ago

The Romans also cooked with laser and rocket: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silphium https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruca_vesicaria https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eruca_vesicaria

haspoken 5y ago

http://archive.is/a9oS7 http://archive.is/a9oS7