6 ms·

Why would "they" argue against it? "Socioeconomic status (SES) and SAT scores are positively correlated: Students from higher income backgrounds generally achi

by aantix 5y ago

Why would "they" argue against it? "Socioeconomic status (SES) and SAT scores are positively correlated: Students from higher income backgrounds generally achieve higher scores, and “21.2% of variance in SAT scores is shared with SES, as measured here as a composite of mother’s education, father’s education, and parental income.” The researchers note that the “source of the SAT-SES relationship is likely due to some combination of educational opportunity, school quality, peer effects and other social factors.” https://journalistsresource.org/economics/ses-socioeconomic-status-sat-grade-relationships-and-in-college-admissions-decisions/ https://journalistsresource.org/economics/ses-socioeconomic-...

fallingknife 5y ago
Hard to take seriously any researchers who don't list genetic inheritance of intelligence as one of the likely causes of the SAT-SES relationship.
- fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
  If they brought it up, they might not be employed as researchers for long. So your heuristic will end up selecting for cranks.
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    Better a crank scientist than a stable religious official. Because that's what it's called when there are possibilities you are not allowed to examine.
- teawrecks 5y ago
  Are you aware of any research supporting genetic inheritance of intelligence. The psychologists I know have told me that there is very little evidence to support that.
  - fallingknife 5y ago
    The alternative hypothesis is completely stupid. Chimps and humans have different intelligence. Are you saying that this isn't genetic?
  - whoooooo123 5y ago
    You don't think that smart people are more likely to have smart children? Do you think that tall people tend to have tall children?
  - atweiden 5y ago
    > The authors acknowledge that an enriched social, educational, economic and intellectual environment can and does raise intelligence scores, but they insist that even when due allowance is made in terms of statistical comparisons of all other factors and measuring their relative weights, intelligence still seems to be strongly influenced by the genes of one's forebears. https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligence-and-who-has-it.html https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligenc... https://www.nytimes3xbfgragh.onion/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligence-and-who-has-it.html https://www.nytimes3xbfgragh.onion/1994/10/16/books/what-is-...
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - jostmey 5y ago
    Why didn't you say so! I mean, if your psychologists said so then it must be
  - eindiran 5y ago
    See: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ * https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/neu.10160 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/neu.10160 * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/ * https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S1832427413000546/type/journal_article https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S183242741... From that wiki article: Twin studies of adult individuals have found a heritability of IQ between 57% and 73% with the most recent studies showing heritability for IQ as high as 80%. IQ goes from being weakly correlated with genetics for children, to being strongly correlated with genetics for late teens and adults. The heritability of IQ increases with age and reaches an asymptote at 18–20 years of age and continues at that level well into adulthood.
throwaway894345 5y ago
Presumably because high-SES folks can do even better if they remove standardized testing. I.e., it can be true that "high-SES correlates with high-SAT" but it does not follow that removing SAT requirements will result in more equal outcomes. It's very likely that SAT requirements level the playing field considerably if not completely. It's probably quite a lot of work (and cost of education) for those high-SES folks to get such high SAT scores, so by removing those SAT requirements they can be admitted more easily/cheaply.
- naturalauction 5y ago
  Do you have any citations for this? I would think that removing SAT requirements would be done alongside an explicit push to admit more lower-SES students. Anecdotal but where I grew up it was never much work for students to get high SAT scores, most people I knew scored relatively high even before preparing.
  - throwaway894345 5y ago
    > It's very likely that SAT requirements level the playing field considerably if not completely. It's probably quite a lot of work (and cost of education) for those high-SES folks to get such high SAT scores, so by removing those SAT requirements they can be admitted more easily/cheaply. Those are the only claims I made, and no, I don't have citations for them. Mostly just intuition that the requirements existed to ensure merit rather than nepotism carried the day, so undoing those requirements is likely to have the inverse effect. > Anecdotal but where I grew up it was never much work for students to get high SAT scores, most people I knew scored relatively high even before preparing. "Getting into prestigious schools" high? If you're doing that effortlessly then you should bottle your local water and sell it, because there's something in it. :)
    - naturalauction 5y ago
      >"Getting into prestigious schools" high? If you're doing that effortlessly then you should bottle your local water and sell it, because there's something in it. :) Yeah, I think it's pretty standard for certain Bay Area public high schools. If I remember correctly the school average was around 1470/1600 (though after prep). For reference Google says the average at Harvard is 1510. Probably has to do more with the parents than the water though.
908B64B197 5y ago
> source of the SAT-SES relationship is likely due to some combination of educational opportunity, school quality, peer effects and other social factors. Parent's attitude toward education is also extremely important. Is it normal to read books for fun? Is using "big words" acceptable at the dinner table? Is asking questions encouraged?
- handrous 5y ago
  > Is it normal to read books for fun? Is using "big words" acceptable at the dinner table? Is asking questions encouraged? My wife once taught a kid whose father kept brusquely "correcting" them any time they they used saw, as in the simple past tense of to see, correctly. The father insisted on seen, and not in a "that's how we talk here" way, but in a "that's how you talk period" way. I'm sure that wasn't the only way he was harming (or trying to harm, anyway) his kid's prospects. Of course they were poor, too. :-(
  - souprock 5y ago
    "I seen a tree" is less ambiguous than "I saw a tree"
    - patrick451 5y ago
      This is quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read on hacker news.
amadeuspagel 5y ago
> Socioeconomic status (SES) and SAT scores are positively correlated. Yes and socioeconomic status and being able to write a good essay, come accross as charming in an interview, etc. are even more correlated, which means that people with a high socioeconomic status still benefit from removing SAT scores.
autokad 5y ago
I am barely paraphrasing, but they want admissions based on skin color. dark skinned people step to the front of the line while light skin people face lottery admissions.
- whoooooo123 5y ago
  Getting rid of the SAT serves two purposes: 1. Pulling up the drawbridge for smart kids from disadvantaged backgrounds, thus making room for less talented children of the wealthy. 2. Getting rid of objective, falsifiable assessments so they can select instead for ideology and party loyalty.
  - MikeUt 5y ago
    > select instead for ideology and party loyalty. Already being done, but not yet at the student level: https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diversity-initiative-berkeley/ https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diver... Not officially, at least. The kind of organization that requires a political pledge as condition of employment, was not bias-free the day before the requirement became official.

by aantix 5y ago

fallingknife 5y ago

Hard to take seriously any researchers who don't list genetic inheritance of intelligence as one of the likely causes of the SAT-SES relationship.

fshbbdssbbgdd 5y ago
If they brought it up, they might not be employed as researchers for long. So your heuristic will end up selecting for cranks.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  Better a crank scientist than a stable religious official. Because that's what it's called when there are possibilities you are not allowed to examine.
teawrecks 5y ago
Are you aware of any research supporting genetic inheritance of intelligence. The psychologists I know have told me that there is very little evidence to support that.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  The alternative hypothesis is completely stupid. Chimps and humans have different intelligence. Are you saying that this isn't genetic?
- whoooooo123 5y ago
  You don't think that smart people are more likely to have smart children? Do you think that tall people tend to have tall children?
- atweiden 5y ago
  > The authors acknowledge that an enriched social, educational, economic and intellectual environment can and does raise intelligence scores, but they insist that even when due allowance is made in terms of statistical comparisons of all other factors and measuring their relative weights, intelligence still seems to be strongly influenced by the genes of one's forebears. https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligence-and-who-has-it.html https://www.nytimes.com/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligenc... https://www.nytimes3xbfgragh.onion/1994/10/16/books/what-is-intelligence-and-who-has-it.html https://www.nytimes3xbfgragh.onion/1994/10/16/books/what-is-...
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- jostmey 5y ago
  Why didn't you say so! I mean, if your psychologists said so then it must be
- eindiran 5y ago
  See: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heritability_of_IQ * https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/neu.10160 https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/abs/10.1002/neu.10160 * https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4270739/ * https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S1832427413000546/type/journal_article https://www.cambridge.org/core/product/identifier/S183242741... From that wiki article: Twin studies of adult individuals have found a heritability of IQ between 57% and 73% with the most recent studies showing heritability for IQ as high as 80%. IQ goes from being weakly correlated with genetics for children, to being strongly correlated with genetics for late teens and adults. The heritability of IQ increases with age and reaches an asymptote at 18–20 years of age and continues at that level well into adulthood.

throwaway894345 5y ago

Presumably because high-SES folks can do even better if they remove standardized testing. I.e., it can be true that "high-SES correlates with high-SAT" but it does not follow that removing SAT requirements will result in more equal outcomes. It's very likely that SAT requirements level the playing field considerably if not completely. It's probably quite a lot of work (and cost of education) for those high-SES folks to get such high SAT scores, so by removing those SAT requirements they can be admitted more easily/cheaply.

naturalauction 5y ago
Do you have any citations for this? I would think that removing SAT requirements would be done alongside an explicit push to admit more lower-SES students. Anecdotal but where I grew up it was never much work for students to get high SAT scores, most people I knew scored relatively high even before preparing.
- throwaway894345 5y ago
  > It's very likely that SAT requirements level the playing field considerably if not completely. It's probably quite a lot of work (and cost of education) for those high-SES folks to get such high SAT scores, so by removing those SAT requirements they can be admitted more easily/cheaply. Those are the only claims I made, and no, I don't have citations for them. Mostly just intuition that the requirements existed to ensure merit rather than nepotism carried the day, so undoing those requirements is likely to have the inverse effect. > Anecdotal but where I grew up it was never much work for students to get high SAT scores, most people I knew scored relatively high even before preparing. "Getting into prestigious schools" high? If you're doing that effortlessly then you should bottle your local water and sell it, because there's something in it. :)
  - naturalauction 5y ago
    >"Getting into prestigious schools" high? If you're doing that effortlessly then you should bottle your local water and sell it, because there's something in it. :) Yeah, I think it's pretty standard for certain Bay Area public high schools. If I remember correctly the school average was around 1470/1600 (though after prep). For reference Google says the average at Harvard is 1510. Probably has to do more with the parents than the water though.

908B64B197 5y ago

> source of the SAT-SES relationship is likely due to some combination of educational opportunity, school quality, peer effects and other social factors. Parent's attitude toward education is also extremely important. Is it normal to read books for fun? Is using "big words" acceptable at the dinner table? Is asking questions encouraged?

handrous 5y ago
> Is it normal to read books for fun? Is using "big words" acceptable at the dinner table? Is asking questions encouraged? My wife once taught a kid whose father kept brusquely "correcting" them any time they they used saw, as in the simple past tense of to see, correctly. The father insisted on seen, and not in a "that's how we talk here" way, but in a "that's how you talk period" way. I'm sure that wasn't the only way he was harming (or trying to harm, anyway) his kid's prospects. Of course they were poor, too. :-(
- souprock 5y ago
  "I seen a tree" is less ambiguous than "I saw a tree"
  - patrick451 5y ago
    This is quite possibly the funniest thing I have ever read on hacker news.

amadeuspagel 5y ago

> Socioeconomic status (SES) and SAT scores are positively correlated. Yes and socioeconomic status and being able to write a good essay, come accross as charming in an interview, etc. are even more correlated, which means that people with a high socioeconomic status still benefit from removing SAT scores.

autokad 5y ago

I am barely paraphrasing, but they want admissions based on skin color. dark skinned people step to the front of the line while light skin people face lottery admissions.

whoooooo123 5y ago
Getting rid of the SAT serves two purposes: 1. Pulling up the drawbridge for smart kids from disadvantaged backgrounds, thus making room for less talented children of the wealthy. 2. Getting rid of objective, falsifiable assessments so they can select instead for ideology and party loyalty.
- MikeUt 5y ago
  > select instead for ideology and party loyalty. Already being done, but not yet at the student level: https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diversity-initiative-berkeley/ https://reason.com/2020/02/03/university-of-california-diver... Not officially, at least. The kind of organization that requires a political pledge as condition of employment, was not bias-free the day before the requirement became official.