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>Research has shown — and lawsuits have argued — that the tests, long used to measure aptitude for college, are far more connected to family income and don't pr

>Research has shown — and lawsuits have argued — that the tests, long used to measure aptitude for college, are far more connected to family income and don't provide meaningful information about a student's ability to succeed in college. The linked research shows nothing of the sort.

throwaway8581 5y ago
The truth requires accepting innate differences in intelligence across races.
- vmception 5y ago
  Only in how to format the inputs, not the processing capability.
- mjevans 5y ago
  I'm far more willing to accept a BIASED TEST than I am someone being more or less smart based on race.
  - throwaway8581 5y ago
    There are a million ways to try to deny the forbidden conclusion, but none of them has withstood empirical scrutiny. Twin studies, adoption studies, etc. The only hypothesis that fits the data is that different races have different distributions of intelligence. There's no reason this should be surprising. Races differ in height, musculature, bone structure, etc. We know that smart people tend to have smart kids and dumb people tend to have dumb kids. Why would intelligence be exempt from variation across races when no other complex heritable trait is?
    - dang 5y ago
      You can't do this here. Since this account has been abusing HN by using this site primarily (almost exclusively) for ideological battle, I've banned it. Would you please stop creating accounts to break HN's rules with? https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20primarily%20battle&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
HideousKojima 5y ago
Yeah but the facts make racially discriminatory admissions policies harder to implement
handrous 5y ago
What's linked is an article (another from NPR) quoting a college official as claiming that, which, it's true, isn't research. However, the linked article itself links to the particular piece of research that both articles are referring to, which contains: "Furthermore, our data indicated that high school GPA had a stronger correlation with college success for Non- Submitters than the ACT/SAT (for the 27% of Non-Submitters for whom we had test scores) -- both in terms of college cumulative GPA and graduation rate. While test scores had a generally stronger relationship with college GPAs for the Submitters, for the Non-Submitters they tended to show a weaker relationship, essentially under- predicting the college GPA. The test scores continued to most strongly correlate with family income." So they may be right or may be wrong, and the research may be good or it may be crap, but NPR does not appear to be misrepresenting its own sources.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  Global correlation with college GPA is a completely useless metric because it doesn't control for the fact that higher SAT's get you into harder schools.
  - handrous 5y ago
    Again, it's entirely possible the linked research is garbage, that's just a different thing from NPR stating something at-odds with what its own source claims.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Furthermore, our data indicated that high school GPA had a stronger correlation with college success for Non- Submitters than the ACT/SAT (for the 27% of Non-Submitters for whom we had test scores) The problem is, is high school GPA measured the same way across different states and schools? > The test scores continued to most strongly correlate with family income. I have no doubts about this. But I'm pretty sure you would get the same result by looking at family stability and parent's educational achievements.
  - handrous 5y ago
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
They show both correlation with income, and success in college. The correlation with income and test results is quite possibly conflated with preparedness, since money provides more opportunities to succeed in school. Still isn't that the same thing? Folks who didn't have pre-college study opportunities might test less well. It doesn't mean they can't succeed in college. That's the point I think; we have to stop weighing environmental factors so highly, since they skew admissions toward wealthy applicants. Which is widely perceived as unfair.
lostcolony 5y ago
The linked research does not provide evidence of the latter (i.e., that SAT score does not provide meaningful information about a student's ability to succeed in college), but it DOES provide evidence of the former (that the tests very much measure family income). It is quite possible, of course, and even quite likely, that higher income families will do better in college (since that likely means better education throughout childhood, as well as less likely to need a job or take on debt to attend, so less distraction, and in the event of struggle more ability to hire tutors and things), but the point is that to admit that "we're selecting for rich people" is to say the quiet part out loud; and colleges of course don't want to do that.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
blululu 5y ago
I do appreciate that they provided the like to the research (https://text.npr.org/2018/04/26/604875394/study-colleges-that-ditch-the-sat-and-act-can-enhance-diversity https://text.npr.org/2018/04/26/604875394/study-colleges-tha...), though it seems to be pretty unequivocally unrelated to the point they are claiming.

throwaway8581 5y ago

The truth requires accepting innate differences in intelligence across races.

vmception 5y ago
Only in how to format the inputs, not the processing capability.
mjevans 5y ago
I'm far more willing to accept a BIASED TEST than I am someone being more or less smart based on race.
- throwaway8581 5y ago
  There are a million ways to try to deny the forbidden conclusion, but none of them has withstood empirical scrutiny. Twin studies, adoption studies, etc. The only hypothesis that fits the data is that different races have different distributions of intelligence. There's no reason this should be surprising. Races differ in height, musculature, bone structure, etc. We know that smart people tend to have smart kids and dumb people tend to have dumb kids. Why would intelligence be exempt from variation across races when no other complex heritable trait is?
  - dang 5y ago
    You can't do this here. Since this account has been abusing HN by using this site primarily (almost exclusively) for ideological battle, I've banned it. Would you please stop creating accounts to break HN's rules with? https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&query=by%3Adang%20primarily%20battle&sort=byDate&type=comment https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que... https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

HideousKojima 5y ago

Yeah but the facts make racially discriminatory admissions policies harder to implement

handrous 5y ago

What's linked is an article (another from NPR) quoting a college official as claiming that, which, it's true, isn't research. However, the linked article itself links to the particular piece of research that both articles are referring to, which contains: "Furthermore, our data indicated that high school GPA had a stronger correlation with college success for Non- Submitters than the ACT/SAT (for the 27% of Non-Submitters for whom we had test scores) -- both in terms of college cumulative GPA and graduation rate. While test scores had a generally stronger relationship with college GPAs for the Submitters, for the Non-Submitters they tended to show a weaker relationship, essentially under- predicting the college GPA. The test scores continued to most strongly correlate with family income." So they may be right or may be wrong, and the research may be good or it may be crap, but NPR does not appear to be misrepresenting its own sources.

fallingknife 5y ago
Global correlation with college GPA is a completely useless metric because it doesn't control for the fact that higher SAT's get you into harder schools.
- handrous 5y ago
  Again, it's entirely possible the linked research is garbage, that's just a different thing from NPR stating something at-odds with what its own source claims.
908B64B197 5y ago
> Furthermore, our data indicated that high school GPA had a stronger correlation with college success for Non- Submitters than the ACT/SAT (for the 27% of Non-Submitters for whom we had test scores) The problem is, is high school GPA measured the same way across different states and schools? > The test scores continued to most strongly correlate with family income. I have no doubts about this. But I'm pretty sure you would get the same result by looking at family stability and parent's educational achievements.
- handrous 5y ago

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

They show both correlation with income, and success in college. The correlation with income and test results is quite possibly conflated with preparedness, since money provides more opportunities to succeed in school. Still isn't that the same thing? Folks who didn't have pre-college study opportunities might test less well. It doesn't mean they can't succeed in college. That's the point I think; we have to stop weighing environmental factors so highly, since they skew admissions toward wealthy applicants. Which is widely perceived as unfair.

lostcolony 5y ago

The linked research does not provide evidence of the latter (i.e., that SAT score does not provide meaningful information about a student's ability to succeed in college), but it DOES provide evidence of the former (that the tests very much measure family income). It is quite possible, of course, and even quite likely, that higher income families will do better in college (since that likely means better education throughout childhood, as well as less likely to need a job or take on debt to attend, so less distraction, and in the event of struggle more ability to hire tutors and things), but the point is that to admit that "we're selecting for rich people" is to say the quiet part out loud; and colleges of course don't want to do that.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

blululu 5y ago

I do appreciate that they provided the like to the research (https://text.npr.org/2018/04/26/604875394/study-colleges-that-ditch-the-sat-and-act-can-enhance-diversity https://text.npr.org/2018/04/26/604875394/study-colleges-tha...), though it seems to be pretty unequivocally unrelated to the point they are claiming.