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>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on

>removing radar sensors to transition to a camera-based Autopilot system A few weeks back, I had a terrible experience while using auto pilot. I was driving on a highway (in CA) with autopilot engaged. For the most part, there was a concrete median on the highway. Suddenly, a section came with no concrete median and a new left only turn lane gets added. For whatever reasons, autopilot thought it is a great idea to suddenly move the steering wheel to left while there is oncoming traffic. I immediately took control of the navigation but the car did wobble a bit. My heart kept racing with an adrenaline rush for the next half an hour. I haven't engaged autopilot since then. I can't trust auto pilot anymore- it couldn't deal with a dead-simple scenario of a clearly marked lane getting added.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
I just don't use Autopilot. It feels so unsafe, maybe that is showing my age but I feel like I'm on a rollercoaster without tracks when I engage it. It's totally fine, I didn't buy the car for Autopilot, I just wanted a nice efficient car, which it is.
dkonofalski 5y ago
I'm confused. If a new left-only turn lane was added, wouldn't it have steered you into that new lane? How did it steer you into oncoming traffic?
- gauravphoenix 5y ago
  Nope. I was going straight and had no intention of turning at all anywhere. Just because a lane is getting added doesn't mean I want to move to that lane.
  - LeoPanthera 5y ago
    I think what he's asking is, a new left-turn lane would have been to your left. So, in order to steer into oncoming traffic it would have had to change lanes at least twice, first into the new left lane, and then left again into traffic. There's something missing from your description.
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      Yes, exactly. This is where my confusion stems from. It doesn't make sense unless the description is clarified.
- deleted 5y ago
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FpUser 5y ago
>"I haven't engaged autopilot since then" Good choice, personally I can't imagine myself using "Autopilot" in a first place.
TwoBit 5y ago
Did your lane split into two and it took the left one? What do you think caused it to do what it did?
- gauravphoenix 5y ago
  It wasn't a split, it was how sometimes you see there are protected turn lanes on highways. So if you need to turn left, you can take that lane and wait for the oncoming traffic to pass.
deleted 5y ago
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paxys 5y ago
Well it's still a "beta" feature, so according to Tesla you shouldn't have trusted it in the first place.
- spicybright 5y ago
  Live roads and endangering people's lives is a poor place to be beta testing. Test data shouldn't be generated by blood.
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  "Oops we tried to kill the user. Repeatedly." seems like more of a pre-alpha kind of bug to me. Beta would be more like driving 15km/h below the speed limit in the passing lane with the blinker left on.
OldGoodNewBad 5y ago
Anybody who uses Autopilot deserves to crash. If I am ever in a wreck with somebody who was autopilotting I will probably take out my concealed handgun and execute them on the spot. EDIT: Downvoted, but I'm totally serious. If you're going to let your robot assault me, I'm going to execute you.
spicybright 5y ago
That terrifying as hell. I'm sure a lot of people have died/had life changing injuries that were in that same situation :(
nemothekid 5y ago
If you are in the Bay Area, I think I know exactly what intersection you are talking about and I'm surprised it hasn't been fix. Someone died in a Model X at that intersection a couple years ago. https://mv-voice.com/news/2018/03/23/car-fire-closes-lanes-on-hwy-101-in-mountain-view https://mv-voice.com/news/2018/03/23/car-fire-closes-lanes-o...
- snypher 5y ago
  Is it this exit (carpool lane over to 85)? 37.4110753, -122.0761614
  - nemothekid 5y ago
    Yes, that one is where the accident occurred in the link I posted
  - ggreer 5y ago
    If anyone is wondering why people are discussing this particular exit so much, look at this image: https://goo.gl/maps/Q2Qm5RR3myMkdsFE8 https://goo.gl/maps/Q2Qm5RR3myMkdsFE8 See that lane on the right that has solid white lines on each side of it? Now pan around: https://goo.gl/maps/TunvNLGvX9sUTbXp9 https://goo.gl/maps/TunvNLGvX9sUTbXp9 It actually leads directly to a barrier. If instead of putting smooth pavement before that barrier, Caltrans had placed grass or dirt or rumble strips or pretty much anything else, this would be a non-issue. But they didn't, so people hit it all the time. You can look at the street view history: Feb 2008, the barrier is surrounded by cones (probably recently replaced): https://goo.gl/maps/faxMWWBCwXxnqqKS8 https://goo.gl/maps/faxMWWBCwXxnqqKS8 Nov 2008, no more cones: https://goo.gl/maps/LPLkCeqeojEgHV679 https://goo.gl/maps/LPLkCeqeojEgHV679 Feb 2011, the barrier is twisted metal covered in warning signs: https://goo.gl/maps/G3oQ4NxkiweJwVdx8 https://goo.gl/maps/G3oQ4NxkiweJwVdx8 Sep 2011, the barrier has been repaired: https://goo.gl/maps/zs7WrXgUa8cxShKN6 https://goo.gl/maps/zs7WrXgUa8cxShKN6 Dec 2013, the barrier has been replaced. Note that this is now a reusable crash barrier. Most crashes won't be noticeable on street view history because the barrier is typically reset within a few days of a crash: https://goo.gl/maps/34oVqmDAJuTepUT76 https://goo.gl/maps/34oVqmDAJuTepUT76 Aug 2014, damaged again. Now the barrier is shorter (needs to be reset by Caltrans): https://goo.gl/maps/LYHidVpVgCt8uDa48 https://goo.gl/maps/LYHidVpVgCt8uDa48 Oct 2014, now it's reset: https://goo.gl/maps/5uhK8bx8cExJR13z5 https://goo.gl/maps/5uhK8bx8cExJR13z5 Sep 2015, damaged again. Now it's ridiculously short (needs to be reset by Caltrans): https://goo.gl/maps/m7ui9naztjRrgdx67 https://goo.gl/maps/m7ui9naztjRrgdx67 Oct 2015, barrier destroyed again: https://goo.gl/maps/6A6GCESsvjkKGK7A6 https://goo.gl/maps/6A6GCESsvjkKGK7A6 Apr 2016, replaced. Now the concrete behind the metal barrier is damaged: https://goo.gl/maps/zUiJzbrDMoUWaJqb9 https://goo.gl/maps/zUiJzbrDMoUWaJqb9 At some point between 2017 and 2019, Caltrans painted between the lanes to make it more obvious: https://goo.gl/maps/zR8sGB2LxG1dUBSz5 https://goo.gl/maps/zR8sGB2LxG1dUBSz5 Again, since late 2013 the barrier been reusable. Only particularly devastating crashes will damage it enough to require replacement. Usually Caltrans resets the barrier after a few days. Sometimes it takes them longer, such as when they didn't reset the barrier before the 2018 crash that killed an Apple engineer driving a Tesla with autopilot enabled.[1] 1. https://abc7news.com/dan-noyes-tesla-crash-iteam-barrier-battery-safety/3280399/ https://abc7news.com/dan-noyes-tesla-crash-iteam-barrier-bat... (Warning: auto-playing video)
ghoward 5y ago
More people need to see your comment because there seems to be a belief that full self driving is just around the corner. However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. In your case, the new lane was clearly marked, which just shows how weak the system really is. Imagine if there was snow covering the lane markings. Or sunlight reflecting off of the road confuses the vision. People bought the self-driving hype because the first 80% was easy. They forgot that the next 20%, as usual, would be incredibly hard, if not impossible. Personally, I will never be okay riding in a car that is on autopilot. Heck, I'm not even okay with the amount of automation in airplane cockpits. [1] [2] [1]: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/faa-report-pilots-addicted-to-automation/2044684/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/faa-report-pilots-addi... [2]: https://hbr.org/2017/09/the-tragic-crash-of-flight-af447-shows-the-unlikely-but-catastrophic-consequences-of-automation https://hbr.org/2017/09/the-tragic-crash-of-flight-af447-sho...
- xnx 5y ago
  Self driving is really hard, but don't confuse Tesla's failings for the state of the art. Waymo's Driver is both much more advanced and much more cautious.
- Closi 5y ago
  > However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras and some underpowered hardware powered by hype. You can see how poor the vision of these systems is by just watching a few Tesla autopilot videos and seeing cars flash into/out of recognition on the screen. The first actual self driving car won’t be the one that does it with bargain basement hardware prioritising low cost over efficacy and safety.
  - henrikschroder 5y ago
    > I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras How would your imagined autopilot system handle traffic flaggers, construction workers with signs, or various people directing traffic with handsignals? How will your system see the difference between a police officer making hand signs that you have to obey, and some random person making hand signals? How will it solve turn taking at stop signals, and how will it solve people waving you on, thereby changing the turn-taking order? There are tons of driving scenarios that require you to look at other humans, figure out who they are, and figure out what they want. For humans, this is dead simple. For computers... Nope.
rootusrootus 5y ago
Yeah, it only takes a couple times of AP making really questionable, even exciting choices like you experienced to really sour someone on the technology. It's supposed to make your life easier, but then it makes an attempt to kill you. Hard to get used to that.
wombatmobile 5y ago
What's meta disturbing about autopilot is the argument that it could save X lives a year, by cutting the road toll from Y down to Z. For that statement to be a validation for legalising autopilot for open usage, the bar for Z needs to be a lot lower than Y. It needs to be zero or else we would be blessing fatal bugs.
- IncRnd 5y ago
  Related to what you wrote, I strongly disagree with the argument that some people make, where it is said X lives were saved. But, what they are really saying is that Y people, who wouldn't otherwise die, were killed by the new technology, yet overall fewer died! What good is any technology if it is known to kill people who would otherwise be alive?
  - osmarks 5y ago
    Why does the particular set of people matter instead of just the difference in numbers? If the Y people happened to be a subset of those who would die without the technology, is that better? If you somehow move all the deaths caused by a thing to a different but equally large set of people, is that bad because those people "would otherwise be alive"?
    - wombatmobile 5y ago
      It depends on who you ask. If we could lower the national death toll by 1,000 people a year but it meant that 4 people you love the most would perish, would you support this new initiative or oppose it?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
vb6sp6 5y ago
Not to be a dick but why would you even enable it in the first place? I assume most people here are somewhat embedded in the tech world and you have probably seen or experienced bugs in software before. It seems a little crazy to me to turn on "beta" software and let it hurl me around the world at 70mph.
vishnugupta 5y ago
For me this is a big drawback of half-baked autopilot. It takes us humans time to engage in a split second and react to surroundings even if they are monitoring it. When driving I'm constantly updating my situation awareness by doing a 360 degree scan every few seconds and I'm 100% engaged with the car so I know which way to safely swerve, what happens if I slam the brakes etc.,. With this auto-pilot-assist I'm monitoring mostly forward and I'm not engaged with the car so my ability to handle emergency situation is severely impaired.
- nathanaldensr 5y ago
  Right; you're practicing inductive logic--something computers can't do--at all times, thus essentially predicting possible futures. Until this ability is present in software, there won't be an adequate replacement.
  - ghoward 5y ago
    This is a perfect summary of why self-driving doesn't work (yet?).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
aplummer 5y ago
With people hyping it and putting our lives in danger like this https://mobile.twitter.com/Scobleizer/status/1395417710217994243 https://mobile.twitter.com/Scobleizer/status/139541771021799... (no hands on wheel) we’ve got plenty of tragedy to come
- tibbydudeza 5y ago
  This guy killed Google Glass by really overhyping it.
shepherdjerred 5y ago
Autopilot is terrifying. I've been a huge admirer of Tesla for years. I've always wanted a Tesla. I test drove a Model 3 a few weeks ago and had a very negative experience. Auto-pilot/FSD are enabled in different ways (one pull of a stalk vs two). It shows up on the center screen as a small blue dot. There were times I wasn't sure if it was engaged, or if I needed to take control. Since the screen is to the right I had to take my eyes off of the road. Part of the problem is me not trusting the car, but it's also because the system isn't very intuitive.
- jdofaz 5y ago
  One pull is regular cruise control
tqi 5y ago
It feels like Tesla's pitch for it's current iteration of self driving is that it is akin to spotting someone who is lifting weights. Sure you are paying attention the entire time, but it's much less demanding that lifting the weight yourself. However to me it's more like if you were spotting the spotter. Most of the time you can get away with just being on your phone or zoning out, but to do it right you basically have to spend the same amount of energy as the primary spotter.
computerex 5y ago
As someone who works with ML/data science for my day job, you couldn't pay me to enable AP and sit in the front seat on a public road. Unless Tesla gets LIDAR I'm not getting in one with the AP enabled.
throwaway77112 5y ago
Videos of Tesla fails, mostly from 2021: [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=antLneVlxcs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=antLneVlxcs [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWlVCwHsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWlVCwHsI [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ozx5R-P9zM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ozx5R-P9zM [4] https://twitter.com/olivercameron/status/1319835514887831552 https://twitter.com/olivercameron/status/1319835514887831552 [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GZg4gGMMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GZg4gGMMM Other things: [1] https://www.elonmusk.today/ https://www.elonmusk.today/ [2] a video which was taken down from youtube https://troll.tv/videos/watch/54bc7bd0-8691-4359-aa7d-dc5148350ff3 https://troll.tv/videos/watch/54bc7bd0-8691-4359-aa7d-dc5148... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Tesla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Tesla [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Tesla,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Tes.... Bonus material: [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsKwMryKqRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsKwMryKqRE Edit: For saner info regarding self-driving, A.I etc: [1] https://twitter.com/missy_cummings/ https://twitter.com/missy_cummings/ [2] https://www.twitter.com/MelMitchell1 https://www.twitter.com/MelMitchell1 [3] https://twitter.com/rodneyabrooks https://twitter.com/rodneyabrooks [4] book to read, suitable even for laypeople >> 'Artificial Intelligence: A Guide for Thinking Humans by Melanie Mitchell IMO everyone should read that book Edit 2: Children of the Magenta Line https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs
xvf22 5y ago
Thankfully you were alert! The problem is it works really really well just enough to have people drop their guard a bit which leads to all sorts of bad outcomes. Who knows when a car firmware update kills someone by adding a twitch like this where previously there was none.
- matmatmatmat 5y ago
  I don't know why you're getting downvoted, I think you make a really valid point: It appears to work well-enough for many people that they lower their guard, but not well-enough to actually work reliably, so it actually increases the overall risk profile.
throw7 5y ago
I'll trust "auto pilot" the day when legal responsibility is shifted to the manufacturer. Honestly, a fully autonomous driving car is a pipe dream (KITT I need ya buddy!!!), but with infrastructure and remote support I think it's totally possible. The question is whether there's a will for that.
xvector 5y ago
I have had experiences (plural) like this in my Model 3 too. I will never buy Tesla again. I don’t think Tesla realizes how much goodwill they are destroying. For example, /r/TeslaMotors is fairly critical of the company these days where it used to be cultish and fanatical.
sorenjan 5y ago
I've seen several videos of Tesla's autopilot getting confused by road markings and steering towards obstacles as a result. Using fewer sensors gives you less information, which seems like a bad idea for something as critical and difficult as automated driving on public roads. It's strange that Tesla's been getting away with unmet promises and dangerous behavior for years now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJSjeHDvfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJSjeHDvfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyUqZDYwrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyUqZDYwrU https://youtu.be/6QSsKy0I9LE?t=82 https://youtu.be/6QSsKy0I9LE?t=82 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqURFUcl5NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqURFUcl5NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jheBCOpE9ws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jheBCOpE9ws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTu3blQa3qk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTu3blQa3qk
tibbydudeza 5y ago
Keep believing in the dream - will be fixed in the next FSD beta. I wonder how their codebase looks like - neural net training model for a slightly wobbly Amish buggy crossing the road in rural Pennsylvania during Rumspringa.
tzs 5y ago
> I haven't engaged autopilot since then. I can't trust auto pilot anymore- it couldn't deal with a dead-simple scenario of a clearly marked lane getting added. I have a question about Tesla Autopilot. Looking at the common driver assistance features that are common nowadays even on many entry level models from most car companies, I see adaptive cruise control (often with low speed following), warnings if you start to drift out of your lane (sometimes with minor steering nudges), warnings if you turn on a turn signal when something is in your blind spot, and similar things. They are usually separate features you can individually enable or disable. I assume Tesla does those things, too, but are they part of Autopilot or are they ? If they are part of Autopilot, do you lose them when you decide not to engage Autopilot or can you turn on and off individual features of Autopilot? Put another way, if I found myself driving a Tesla, and only wanted it to only use those driver assist features that I'd find if I were driving a low to mid level Honda Civic or Toyota Camry, is that possible?
- qubitcoder 5y ago
  Absolutely. All the features you mentioned are standard and work independently of Autopilot [0] It probably has the best and most intuitive lane keeping, adaptive cruise control, blind spot alerts, collision detection warnings, etc. out there (at least from the cars I've driven). For example, other intelligent cruise control systems I've used will rigidly and aggressively maintain a fixed distance from the car in front of you, like a robot--with only 3 options: awful tail gating, kind of acceptable, and piss everyone else off as you stay a mile away. Whereas Telsa's have some 8 levels of distance options--easily adjustable by pushing the right steering wheel button left or right, which shows a visual indicator on the screen. And more importantly, it isn't some rigid algorithm that will "always maintain 8 car lengths", instead its behavior is based on current conditions. Autopilot is a fantastic driver-assist tool, and makes driving so much more enjoyable and less stressful. Part of the problem is that even technically inclined people, as witnessed here, have trouble with the distinction between "Full Self Driving", and "Autopilot". Autopilot is basically cruise control with steering. If you wouldn't use cruise control normally, certainly don't use Autopilot. And when using it, keep your hands on the wheel, and be prepared to take control immediately, just like it says--especially whenever there's an upcoming change to road conditions (e.g. a new lane appears, an intersection, a merger, etc). It's also really easy to take control if it starts to veer into, say, another lane that appears. When I first got a Model Y in January, there were a couple places on my daily drive where it'd tend to rather aggressively steer into an an emerging turn lane with poor/non-existent markings. However, it would ultimately make the right decision, even if it was a little unnerving. But with the latest software updates, those edge cases have been addressed; at most, it'll gently and momentarily steer in that direction, and then gracefully correct to maintain its previous heading (as you'd expect). Autopilot doesn't have a detailed understanding of the road path, stop signs, intersections, etc. It's literally just using onboard sensors to figure out its surroundings. Full Self Driving is a totally different animal. And I think everyone would agree that Telsa has done a rather poor job communicating these distinctions and limitations. [0] https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2021/04/18/tesla-autopilot-is-just-better-cruise-control-anyone-who-thinks-it-should-be-banned-is-acting-stupid/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/04/18/tesla-autopilot-is-just...
sethammons 5y ago
A colleague at work gave me a ride in his new tesla a couple years ago. I know that autopilot has improved a lot since then, but we were on a freeway and the left lane was merging onto the expressway and had come to a stop. The lane we were in was moving just fine. The tesla though we were in the left lane or something because it slammed on the breaks to prevent us rear-ending the stopped/slowing car in the left lane. This caused us to nearly get rear-ended for erratic driving. My colleague drove manually for the remainder of the commute :)
sturza 5y ago
The complexity of a control system must be equal to or greater than the complexity of the system it controls
creckic 5y ago
> I can't trust auto pilot anymore- it couldn't deal with a dead-simple scenario of a clearly marked lane getting added. You are not supposed to trust it. You are supposed to use it as an assistance feature. It's not meant to be autonomous.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago

I just don't use Autopilot. It feels so unsafe, maybe that is showing my age but I feel like I'm on a rollercoaster without tracks when I engage it. It's totally fine, I didn't buy the car for Autopilot, I just wanted a nice efficient car, which it is.

dkonofalski 5y ago

I'm confused. If a new left-only turn lane was added, wouldn't it have steered you into that new lane? How did it steer you into oncoming traffic?

gauravphoenix 5y ago
Nope. I was going straight and had no intention of turning at all anywhere. Just because a lane is getting added doesn't mean I want to move to that lane.
- LeoPanthera 5y ago
  I think what he's asking is, a new left-turn lane would have been to your left. So, in order to steer into oncoming traffic it would have had to change lanes at least twice, first into the new left lane, and then left again into traffic. There's something missing from your description.
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    Yes, exactly. This is where my confusion stems from. It doesn't make sense unless the description is clarified.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

FpUser 5y ago

>"I haven't engaged autopilot since then" Good choice, personally I can't imagine myself using "Autopilot" in a first place.

TwoBit 5y ago

Did your lane split into two and it took the left one? What do you think caused it to do what it did?

gauravphoenix 5y ago
It wasn't a split, it was how sometimes you see there are protected turn lanes on highways. So if you need to turn left, you can take that lane and wait for the oncoming traffic to pass.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

paxys 5y ago

Well it's still a "beta" feature, so according to Tesla you shouldn't have trusted it in the first place.

spicybright 5y ago
Live roads and endangering people's lives is a poor place to be beta testing. Test data shouldn't be generated by blood.
mumblemumble 5y ago
"Oops we tried to kill the user. Repeatedly." seems like more of a pre-alpha kind of bug to me. Beta would be more like driving 15km/h below the speed limit in the passing lane with the blinker left on.

OldGoodNewBad 5y ago

Anybody who uses Autopilot deserves to crash. If I am ever in a wreck with somebody who was autopilotting I will probably take out my concealed handgun and execute them on the spot. EDIT: Downvoted, but I'm totally serious. If you're going to let your robot assault me, I'm going to execute you.

spicybright 5y ago

That terrifying as hell. I'm sure a lot of people have died/had life changing injuries that were in that same situation :(

nemothekid 5y ago

If you are in the Bay Area, I think I know exactly what intersection you are talking about and I'm surprised it hasn't been fix. Someone died in a Model X at that intersection a couple years ago. https://mv-voice.com/news/2018/03/23/car-fire-closes-lanes-on-hwy-101-in-mountain-view https://mv-voice.com/news/2018/03/23/car-fire-closes-lanes-o...

snypher 5y ago
Is it this exit (carpool lane over to 85)? 37.4110753, -122.0761614
- nemothekid 5y ago
  Yes, that one is where the accident occurred in the link I posted
- ggreer 5y ago
  If anyone is wondering why people are discussing this particular exit so much, look at this image: https://goo.gl/maps/Q2Qm5RR3myMkdsFE8 https://goo.gl/maps/Q2Qm5RR3myMkdsFE8 See that lane on the right that has solid white lines on each side of it? Now pan around: https://goo.gl/maps/TunvNLGvX9sUTbXp9 https://goo.gl/maps/TunvNLGvX9sUTbXp9 It actually leads directly to a barrier. If instead of putting smooth pavement before that barrier, Caltrans had placed grass or dirt or rumble strips or pretty much anything else, this would be a non-issue. But they didn't, so people hit it all the time. You can look at the street view history: Feb 2008, the barrier is surrounded by cones (probably recently replaced): https://goo.gl/maps/faxMWWBCwXxnqqKS8 https://goo.gl/maps/faxMWWBCwXxnqqKS8 Nov 2008, no more cones: https://goo.gl/maps/LPLkCeqeojEgHV679 https://goo.gl/maps/LPLkCeqeojEgHV679 Feb 2011, the barrier is twisted metal covered in warning signs: https://goo.gl/maps/G3oQ4NxkiweJwVdx8 https://goo.gl/maps/G3oQ4NxkiweJwVdx8 Sep 2011, the barrier has been repaired: https://goo.gl/maps/zs7WrXgUa8cxShKN6 https://goo.gl/maps/zs7WrXgUa8cxShKN6 Dec 2013, the barrier has been replaced. Note that this is now a reusable crash barrier. Most crashes won't be noticeable on street view history because the barrier is typically reset within a few days of a crash: https://goo.gl/maps/34oVqmDAJuTepUT76 https://goo.gl/maps/34oVqmDAJuTepUT76 Aug 2014, damaged again. Now the barrier is shorter (needs to be reset by Caltrans): https://goo.gl/maps/LYHidVpVgCt8uDa48 https://goo.gl/maps/LYHidVpVgCt8uDa48 Oct 2014, now it's reset: https://goo.gl/maps/5uhK8bx8cExJR13z5 https://goo.gl/maps/5uhK8bx8cExJR13z5 Sep 2015, damaged again. Now it's ridiculously short (needs to be reset by Caltrans): https://goo.gl/maps/m7ui9naztjRrgdx67 https://goo.gl/maps/m7ui9naztjRrgdx67 Oct 2015, barrier destroyed again: https://goo.gl/maps/6A6GCESsvjkKGK7A6 https://goo.gl/maps/6A6GCESsvjkKGK7A6 Apr 2016, replaced. Now the concrete behind the metal barrier is damaged: https://goo.gl/maps/zUiJzbrDMoUWaJqb9 https://goo.gl/maps/zUiJzbrDMoUWaJqb9 At some point between 2017 and 2019, Caltrans painted between the lanes to make it more obvious: https://goo.gl/maps/zR8sGB2LxG1dUBSz5 https://goo.gl/maps/zR8sGB2LxG1dUBSz5 Again, since late 2013 the barrier been reusable. Only particularly devastating crashes will damage it enough to require replacement. Usually Caltrans resets the barrier after a few days. Sometimes it takes them longer, such as when they didn't reset the barrier before the 2018 crash that killed an Apple engineer driving a Tesla with autopilot enabled.[1] 1. https://abc7news.com/dan-noyes-tesla-crash-iteam-barrier-battery-safety/3280399/ https://abc7news.com/dan-noyes-tesla-crash-iteam-barrier-bat... (Warning: auto-playing video)

ghoward 5y ago

More people need to see your comment because there seems to be a belief that full self driving is just around the corner. However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. In your case, the new lane was clearly marked, which just shows how weak the system really is. Imagine if there was snow covering the lane markings. Or sunlight reflecting off of the road confuses the vision. People bought the self-driving hype because the first 80% was easy. They forgot that the next 20%, as usual, would be incredibly hard, if not impossible. Personally, I will never be okay riding in a car that is on autopilot. Heck, I'm not even okay with the amount of automation in airplane cockpits. [1] [2] [1]: https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/faa-report-pilots-addicted-to-automation/2044684/ https://www.nbcbayarea.com/news/local/faa-report-pilots-addi... [2]: https://hbr.org/2017/09/the-tragic-crash-of-flight-af447-shows-the-unlikely-but-catastrophic-consequences-of-automation https://hbr.org/2017/09/the-tragic-crash-of-flight-af447-sho...

xnx 5y ago
Self driving is really hard, but don't confuse Tesla's failings for the state of the art. Waymo's Driver is both much more advanced and much more cautious.
Closi 5y ago
> However, IMO, it will never happen because it needs a full artificial general intelligence. I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras and some underpowered hardware powered by hype. You can see how poor the vision of these systems is by just watching a few Tesla autopilot videos and seeing cars flash into/out of recognition on the screen. The first actual self driving car won’t be the one that does it with bargain basement hardware prioritising low cost over efficacy and safety.
- henrikschroder 5y ago
  > I don’t think that’s true - but it certainly needs more than a couple of poor resolution cameras How would your imagined autopilot system handle traffic flaggers, construction workers with signs, or various people directing traffic with handsignals? How will your system see the difference between a police officer making hand signs that you have to obey, and some random person making hand signals? How will it solve turn taking at stop signals, and how will it solve people waving you on, thereby changing the turn-taking order? There are tons of driving scenarios that require you to look at other humans, figure out who they are, and figure out what they want. For humans, this is dead simple. For computers... Nope.

rootusrootus 5y ago

Yeah, it only takes a couple times of AP making really questionable, even exciting choices like you experienced to really sour someone on the technology. It's supposed to make your life easier, but then it makes an attempt to kill you. Hard to get used to that.

wombatmobile 5y ago

What's meta disturbing about autopilot is the argument that it could save X lives a year, by cutting the road toll from Y down to Z. For that statement to be a validation for legalising autopilot for open usage, the bar for Z needs to be a lot lower than Y. It needs to be zero or else we would be blessing fatal bugs.

IncRnd 5y ago
Related to what you wrote, I strongly disagree with the argument that some people make, where it is said X lives were saved. But, what they are really saying is that Y people, who wouldn't otherwise die, were killed by the new technology, yet overall fewer died! What good is any technology if it is known to kill people who would otherwise be alive?
- osmarks 5y ago
  Why does the particular set of people matter instead of just the difference in numbers? If the Y people happened to be a subset of those who would die without the technology, is that better? If you somehow move all the deaths caused by a thing to a different but equally large set of people, is that bad because those people "would otherwise be alive"?
  - wombatmobile 5y ago
    It depends on who you ask. If we could lower the national death toll by 1,000 people a year but it meant that 4 people you love the most would perish, would you support this new initiative or oppose it?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]

vb6sp6 5y ago

Not to be a dick but why would you even enable it in the first place? I assume most people here are somewhat embedded in the tech world and you have probably seen or experienced bugs in software before. It seems a little crazy to me to turn on "beta" software and let it hurl me around the world at 70mph.

vishnugupta 5y ago

For me this is a big drawback of half-baked autopilot. It takes us humans time to engage in a split second and react to surroundings even if they are monitoring it. When driving I'm constantly updating my situation awareness by doing a 360 degree scan every few seconds and I'm 100% engaged with the car so I know which way to safely swerve, what happens if I slam the brakes etc.,. With this auto-pilot-assist I'm monitoring mostly forward and I'm not engaged with the car so my ability to handle emergency situation is severely impaired.

nathanaldensr 5y ago
Right; you're practicing inductive logic--something computers can't do--at all times, thus essentially predicting possible futures. Until this ability is present in software, there won't be an adequate replacement.
- ghoward 5y ago
  This is a perfect summary of why self-driving doesn't work (yet?).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

aplummer 5y ago

With people hyping it and putting our lives in danger like this https://mobile.twitter.com/Scobleizer/status/1395417710217994243 https://mobile.twitter.com/Scobleizer/status/139541771021799... (no hands on wheel) we’ve got plenty of tragedy to come

tibbydudeza 5y ago
This guy killed Google Glass by really overhyping it.

shepherdjerred 5y ago

Autopilot is terrifying. I've been a huge admirer of Tesla for years. I've always wanted a Tesla. I test drove a Model 3 a few weeks ago and had a very negative experience. Auto-pilot/FSD are enabled in different ways (one pull of a stalk vs two). It shows up on the center screen as a small blue dot. There were times I wasn't sure if it was engaged, or if I needed to take control. Since the screen is to the right I had to take my eyes off of the road. Part of the problem is me not trusting the car, but it's also because the system isn't very intuitive.

jdofaz 5y ago
One pull is regular cruise control

tqi 5y ago

It feels like Tesla's pitch for it's current iteration of self driving is that it is akin to spotting someone who is lifting weights. Sure you are paying attention the entire time, but it's much less demanding that lifting the weight yourself. However to me it's more like if you were spotting the spotter. Most of the time you can get away with just being on your phone or zoning out, but to do it right you basically have to spend the same amount of energy as the primary spotter.

computerex 5y ago

As someone who works with ML/data science for my day job, you couldn't pay me to enable AP and sit in the front seat on a public road. Unless Tesla gets LIDAR I'm not getting in one with the AP enabled.

throwaway77112 5y ago

Videos of Tesla fails, mostly from 2021: [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=antLneVlxcs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=antLneVlxcs [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWlVCwHsI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uClWlVCwHsI [3] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ozx5R-P9zM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ozx5R-P9zM [4] https://twitter.com/olivercameron/status/1319835514887831552 https://twitter.com/olivercameron/status/1319835514887831552 [5] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GZg4gGMMM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29GZg4gGMMM Other things: [1] https://www.elonmusk.today/ https://www.elonmusk.today/ [2] a video which was taken down from youtube https://troll.tv/videos/watch/54bc7bd0-8691-4359-aa7d-dc5148350ff3 https://troll.tv/videos/watch/54bc7bd0-8691-4359-aa7d-dc5148... [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Tesla https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Tesla [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Tesla,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_lawsuits_involving_Tes.... Bonus material: [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsKwMryKqRE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NsKwMryKqRE Edit: For saner info regarding self-driving, A.I etc: [1] https://twitter.com/missy_cummings/ https://twitter.com/missy_cummings/ [2] https://www.twitter.com/MelMitchell1 https://www.twitter.com/MelMitchell1 [3] https://twitter.com/rodneyabrooks https://twitter.com/rodneyabrooks [4] book to read, suitable even for laypeople >> 'Artificial Intelligence: A Guide for Thinking Humans by Melanie Mitchell IMO everyone should read that book Edit 2: Children of the Magenta Line https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ESJH1NLMLs

xvf22 5y ago

Thankfully you were alert! The problem is it works really really well just enough to have people drop their guard a bit which leads to all sorts of bad outcomes. Who knows when a car firmware update kills someone by adding a twitch like this where previously there was none.

matmatmatmat 5y ago
I don't know why you're getting downvoted, I think you make a really valid point: It appears to work well-enough for many people that they lower their guard, but not well-enough to actually work reliably, so it actually increases the overall risk profile.

throw7 5y ago

I'll trust "auto pilot" the day when legal responsibility is shifted to the manufacturer. Honestly, a fully autonomous driving car is a pipe dream (KITT I need ya buddy!!!), but with infrastructure and remote support I think it's totally possible. The question is whether there's a will for that.

xvector 5y ago

I have had experiences (plural) like this in my Model 3 too. I will never buy Tesla again. I don’t think Tesla realizes how much goodwill they are destroying. For example, /r/TeslaMotors is fairly critical of the company these days where it used to be cultish and fanatical.

sorenjan 5y ago

I've seen several videos of Tesla's autopilot getting confused by road markings and steering towards obstacles as a result. Using fewer sensors gives you less information, which seems like a bad idea for something as critical and difficult as automated driving on public roads. It's strange that Tesla's been getting away with unmet promises and dangerous behavior for years now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJSjeHDvfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VVJSjeHDvfY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyUqZDYwrU https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fKyUqZDYwrU https://youtu.be/6QSsKy0I9LE?t=82 https://youtu.be/6QSsKy0I9LE?t=82 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqURFUcl5NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KqURFUcl5NI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jheBCOpE9ws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jheBCOpE9ws https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTu3blQa3qk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GTu3blQa3qk

tibbydudeza 5y ago

Keep believing in the dream - will be fixed in the next FSD beta. I wonder how their codebase looks like - neural net training model for a slightly wobbly Amish buggy crossing the road in rural Pennsylvania during Rumspringa.

tzs 5y ago

> I haven't engaged autopilot since then. I can't trust auto pilot anymore- it couldn't deal with a dead-simple scenario of a clearly marked lane getting added. I have a question about Tesla Autopilot. Looking at the common driver assistance features that are common nowadays even on many entry level models from most car companies, I see adaptive cruise control (often with low speed following), warnings if you start to drift out of your lane (sometimes with minor steering nudges), warnings if you turn on a turn signal when something is in your blind spot, and similar things. They are usually separate features you can individually enable or disable. I assume Tesla does those things, too, but are they part of Autopilot or are they ? If they are part of Autopilot, do you lose them when you decide not to engage Autopilot or can you turn on and off individual features of Autopilot? Put another way, if I found myself driving a Tesla, and only wanted it to only use those driver assist features that I'd find if I were driving a low to mid level Honda Civic or Toyota Camry, is that possible?

qubitcoder 5y ago
Absolutely. All the features you mentioned are standard and work independently of Autopilot [0] It probably has the best and most intuitive lane keeping, adaptive cruise control, blind spot alerts, collision detection warnings, etc. out there (at least from the cars I've driven). For example, other intelligent cruise control systems I've used will rigidly and aggressively maintain a fixed distance from the car in front of you, like a robot--with only 3 options: awful tail gating, kind of acceptable, and piss everyone else off as you stay a mile away. Whereas Telsa's have some 8 levels of distance options--easily adjustable by pushing the right steering wheel button left or right, which shows a visual indicator on the screen. And more importantly, it isn't some rigid algorithm that will "always maintain 8 car lengths", instead its behavior is based on current conditions. Autopilot is a fantastic driver-assist tool, and makes driving so much more enjoyable and less stressful. Part of the problem is that even technically inclined people, as witnessed here, have trouble with the distinction between "Full Self Driving", and "Autopilot". Autopilot is basically cruise control with steering. If you wouldn't use cruise control normally, certainly don't use Autopilot. And when using it, keep your hands on the wheel, and be prepared to take control immediately, just like it says--especially whenever there's an upcoming change to road conditions (e.g. a new lane appears, an intersection, a merger, etc). It's also really easy to take control if it starts to veer into, say, another lane that appears. When I first got a Model Y in January, there were a couple places on my daily drive where it'd tend to rather aggressively steer into an an emerging turn lane with poor/non-existent markings. However, it would ultimately make the right decision, even if it was a little unnerving. But with the latest software updates, those edge cases have been addressed; at most, it'll gently and momentarily steer in that direction, and then gracefully correct to maintain its previous heading (as you'd expect). Autopilot doesn't have a detailed understanding of the road path, stop signs, intersections, etc. It's literally just using onboard sensors to figure out its surroundings. Full Self Driving is a totally different animal. And I think everyone would agree that Telsa has done a rather poor job communicating these distinctions and limitations. [0] https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot https://www.tesla.com/support/autopilot [1] https://cleantechnica.com/2021/04/18/tesla-autopilot-is-just-better-cruise-control-anyone-who-thinks-it-should-be-banned-is-acting-stupid/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/04/18/tesla-autopilot-is-just...

sethammons 5y ago

A colleague at work gave me a ride in his new tesla a couple years ago. I know that autopilot has improved a lot since then, but we were on a freeway and the left lane was merging onto the expressway and had come to a stop. The lane we were in was moving just fine. The tesla though we were in the left lane or something because it slammed on the breaks to prevent us rear-ending the stopped/slowing car in the left lane. This caused us to nearly get rear-ended for erratic driving. My colleague drove manually for the remainder of the commute :)

sturza 5y ago

The complexity of a control system must be equal to or greater than the complexity of the system it controls

creckic 5y ago

> I can't trust auto pilot anymore- it couldn't deal with a dead-simple scenario of a clearly marked lane getting added. You are not supposed to trust it. You are supposed to use it as an assistance feature. It's not meant to be autonomous.