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Thankfully the patents are starting to expire in 2024. Nothing holds pack progress quite like the patent system. The problem with causing $300 of destruction

by VLM 5y ago

Thankfully the patents are starting to expire in 2024. Nothing holds pack progress quite like the patent system. The problem with causing $300 of destruction and lost work time vs possibly saving a limb is there's no fine woodworking operation or framing carpentry operation that requires a table saw. Technically if you feel unsafe working with a table saw you can do absolutely everything very slowly and tediously with a router or router table or bandsaw, or manual tools like a chisel and hammer. Anyone concerned about safety doesn't use a saw stop, they use an entirely different technology than a table saw. If you make a table saw too safe or too expensive to actually use, people will simply use something else. The death toll may or may not be lower... From a marketing perspective, the people most likely to buy a saw stop because they're scared of table saws will save a lot of money by not buying either sawstop or table saw, and they'll cut dado slots using a hand held router (more dangerous in a different way) or break down plywood using a tracksaw (unholy expensive and many crushed foot injuries) or cut beveled edges on a router table or zillions of alternatives. Meanwhile the people who don't care about safety because they're not drinking on the job or they actually use the substantial amount of safety gear that makes a table saw perfectly safe OR they only do operations on the table saw that are inherently safe by nature (as opposed to relatively low risk operations, and some very high risk operations that people do anyway), will continue to save a lot of money by the combo of not being dumb and not buying sawstop. Finally the real dumb woodworkers who get drunk and get hurt or simply don't care, will continue to not care and not buy sawstop and will not live too much longer in a world either with sawstop or without table saws anyway, so its not like the world will net improve, the Darwin award winners will continue to win Darwin awards. So sawstop is a VERY hard sell. A similar problem is well manufactured table saws are safer than homemade table saws. The concept of "put a round blade on a motor" is too simple to legislate out of existence. So making table saws illegal wouldn't eliminate table saws it would just mean the homemade ones will make table saws, on average, more dangerous. Arguably, radial arm saws are more dangerous than table saws and "the marketplace" effectively eliminated those decades ago, so its not like the marketplace dislikes safety or whatever.

gknoy 5y ago
> Meanwhile the people who don't care about safety because > they're [never doing unsafe things] This sounds an awful lot like suggesting that skilled users of firearms don't care at all about safety because no one's going to deliberately do stupid stuff. It seems farcical to me. Just as with firearm safety rules, they're there to protect people from the rare moments when we are inadvertently NOT careful. History has shown that people DO do stupid stuff because they were thinking about something else, or were tired, or distracted -- hence why every firearm is treated as loaded, even if you unloaded it, and why weapon safeties exist. For table saws, having a sawstop helps prevent situations that you don't have fill control over from having bad consequences. Of course you'd still use all the same safety measures you normally would without one.
- VLM 5y ago
  Most firearms accidents happen during normal operations like carrying, cleaning, disassembly, and so on. In comparison table saws are extremely versatile and can do many operations some of which categorically prevent entire classes of accidents. For example I have a commercially made box cutting jig with various shields and guards and its not physically possible to stick my fingers in the blade during operation. If as you claim my mind drifted and I did stupid stuff, by physical design of the operation its impossible to hurt myself. There's another class of accident involving equipment. Some people do not store firearms with trigger locks or unloaded in safes or whatever. Likewise there's an analogy with table saws where I don't rip small boards without a nice featherboard, riving knife, and some really nice plastic pushsticks. If as you claim my mind drifted, this time by use of tools it would still be physically impossible to hurt myself. There is a class of inherently dangerous operations where no safety tools exist but the table saw is so versatile and flexible people can successfully do the operation... most of the time. My point is instead of spending more money to build a "better" tablesaw to do something dumb, simply invest the money in a COTS bandsaw or track saw or jigsaw hole cutting jig or chainsaw or planer or whatever crazy risky thing there's a better, faster, safer tool. You can do dangerous things with a table saw but there's always a better safer faster way to do it with a different tool. Taking away money by making the required table saw more expensive just means the woodworker will not be able to afford the superior even safer tool for the job.
akiselev 5y ago
Ha! You described me to a 't' and all that makes sense. As a programmer I didn't want to risk my fingers even with a SawStop cabinet so I invested the money in a Festool tracksaw and Domino instead. No crushed foot injuries yet but man I wish I had a tablesaw to cut thin pieces from stock that aren't wide enough to fully support the track.

by VLM 5y ago

gknoy 5y ago

> Meanwhile the people who don't care about safety because > they're [never doing unsafe things] This sounds an awful lot like suggesting that skilled users of firearms don't care at all about safety because no one's going to deliberately do stupid stuff. It seems farcical to me. Just as with firearm safety rules, they're there to protect people from the rare moments when we are inadvertently NOT careful. History has shown that people DO do stupid stuff because they were thinking about something else, or were tired, or distracted -- hence why every firearm is treated as loaded, even if you unloaded it, and why weapon safeties exist. For table saws, having a sawstop helps prevent situations that you don't have fill control over from having bad consequences. Of course you'd still use all the same safety measures you normally would without one.

VLM 5y ago
Most firearms accidents happen during normal operations like carrying, cleaning, disassembly, and so on. In comparison table saws are extremely versatile and can do many operations some of which categorically prevent entire classes of accidents. For example I have a commercially made box cutting jig with various shields and guards and its not physically possible to stick my fingers in the blade during operation. If as you claim my mind drifted and I did stupid stuff, by physical design of the operation its impossible to hurt myself. There's another class of accident involving equipment. Some people do not store firearms with trigger locks or unloaded in safes or whatever. Likewise there's an analogy with table saws where I don't rip small boards without a nice featherboard, riving knife, and some really nice plastic pushsticks. If as you claim my mind drifted, this time by use of tools it would still be physically impossible to hurt myself. There is a class of inherently dangerous operations where no safety tools exist but the table saw is so versatile and flexible people can successfully do the operation... most of the time. My point is instead of spending more money to build a "better" tablesaw to do something dumb, simply invest the money in a COTS bandsaw or track saw or jigsaw hole cutting jig or chainsaw or planer or whatever crazy risky thing there's a better, faster, safer tool. You can do dangerous things with a table saw but there's always a better safer faster way to do it with a different tool. Taking away money by making the required table saw more expensive just means the woodworker will not be able to afford the superior even safer tool for the job.

akiselev 5y ago

Ha! You described me to a 't' and all that makes sense. As a programmer I didn't want to risk my fingers even with a SawStop cabinet so I invested the money in a Festool tracksaw and Domino instead. No crushed foot injuries yet but man I wish I had a tablesaw to cut thin pieces from stock that aren't wide enough to fully support the track.