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Little about this line of conversation strikes me as a coherent point about China's emergence as a repressive dystopian global power. Starting from a dismissive

Little about this line of conversation strikes me as a coherent point about China's emergence as a repressive dystopian global power. Starting from a dismissive point that China's dystopianism is somehow absurd, two goalpost-moving comments later we've arrived at the uninsightful point that the future is uncertain and we should ask questions. Assuming charitably that you perhaps just didn't read some comments fully, "Has China gotten more repressive over time, or less repressive?" has fairly obvious answers involving "Uighurs, suppression of speech, Hong Kong, military expansion, political influence, the Great Firewall" that didn't exist before and that you've not addressed at all. Thanks for reminding me that I can actually question things. One critical component of questioning things is that you look at available information and address questions to what we think we know, not dismiss available information and say we shouldn't trust everything we read. With that in mind, what questions do you have about available information about China's repressive dystopia?

kbenson 5y ago
> Starting from a dismissive point that China's dystopianism is somehow absurd Not meant to be dismissive, not what I said, and not what I was trying to convey. I'll say it again and very clearly: first prove that China is or is moving towards a repressive dystopia. > has fairly obvious answers involving "Uighurs, suppression of speech, Hong Kong, military expansion, political influence, the Great Firewall" that didn't exist before and that you've not addressed at all. Stating things that exist is not an examination of whether they they were better or worse than previously, or how periods of time compare. - Uighurs. They're being oppressed. Are the the first group China has oppressed? If not, then does their oppression seem more or less heavy handed and extreme than those examples that came previously? I don't know enough to compare them, but there has been opression of Tibetans in China for decades, possibly since the inception of the communist party there. - Hong Kong - This is China exerting control in a way similar to what it does for the rest of its country over an island they believe is part of their country. Is this China becoming more repressive, or just applying the same standards its known for to a populace that was not previously subject to it. It sucks, but is it necessarily an example of China becoming more oppressive? I'm not so sure. Any capitulation at all on China's part, even if a far cry from what people in Hong Kong want, might be a net lessening of repression in China if allowed in other locales of their country. - Military expansion - Hardly an example of one thing over another. Military expansion is orthogonal to whether they are repressive or a dystopia. If the populace supports it (and all indications I've seen are that the Chinese people are experiencing a massive surge of nationalism as their country comes to prominence), then it hardly needs to be repressive. - Great Firewall - Taken in context, this is much more ambiguous than presented I think. In 2008, only 22% of Chinese citizens had even used the internet.[1] It's only at about 71% as of 2021. When the Great Firewall was implemented in 1997, I see some indications that well under a million people even had access to it in China.[2] It's speculation on my part, but I have to think given China's goals that there would be a lot less people with access to any sort of internet if they didn't have some control mechanism in place. So is the Great Firewall an example of increasing repression, or slowly opening up to outside information and influences, but just not all at once? I imagine the average Chinese citizen has far more access to information from outside their country than they did in the past, even with the Great Firewall. > that didn't exist before and that you've not addressed at all. I didn't address them because throwing out names of things is not an argument. No argument was put forth, because if a coherent one was you would think they might examine these things as I have and acknowledge that they think they are evidence of increased oppression in spite of that. I would accept that as someone putting in the effort to understand what they were talking about, rather than just putting forth something without any real indication that it makes sense. > One critical component of questioning things is that you look at available information and address questions to what we think we know, not dismiss available information and say we shouldn't trust everything we read. With that in mind, what questions do you have about available information about China's repressive dystopia? I outlined them above. I'm not expecting you or anyone else to accept them as fact. I honestly don't know enough about China to know how the majority of those items stand up to scrutiny, but I've been hearing about China for enough decades now to realize the bad things I hear are all pretty much the same things rehashed or done over again, but there are other things I hear which I didn't use to which are promising, so I think it's something that actually deserves some attention and a fair shake at being discussed, whether it turns out they seem to be getting worse or better. And, to be clear, yet again, because this entire set of exchanges seems to be people thinking I'm defending China for no reason and think they're great or something, I have no real love for China. I think they do lots of horrible shit. I have never been there, I have no investments there, I have no relations or family involved with it in any way I'm aware of. But purely on a humanitarian level, I think there might just be cause to be optimistic on China's future outlook, because even though it's hard to get good useful information on it, to me it seems like it might just be trending in a good direction, even if it might take a long time to get to something we would consider acceptable. I would want to know if I'm wrong through, and I'm willing to accept arguments that I'm wrong, but if you look you'll see a dearth of argument provided here. I want to know if I'm wrong, but I'm not going to let people just yell "you're wrong!" at without evidence be what convinces me. And if people don't know enough to argue about those things (at least as little as I do which allows me to put them in some minimal context), what are they doing throwing them out as evidence? 1: https://www.statista.com/statistics/236963/penetration-rate-of-internet-users-in-china/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/236963/penetration-rate-... 2: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Internet-Users-in-China-1997-2003_fig3_222414990 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Internet-Users-in-China-...
- themacguffinman 5y ago
  Stating examples where China did not previously oppress and now do oppress demonstrate China's continued streak of repressive dystopia. You seem pretty aware on the facts of China's oppression but willfully deny their depiction of a repressive dystopia. Apparently you know that oppression of Uighurs is ongoing and horrific but somehow the possibility that they're not the first group they've oppressed could be...promising? I don't know what to make of this logic. China hasn't stopped oppressing Tibetans, so this (relatively) new repression of Uighurs is literally more oppression than they've done before. And you're well aware of the benighted takeover of Hong Kong, but once again willing to overlook it as an example of repressive dystopia because it's now the same as the rest of China...which is also currently oppressed and lacks basic freedom. I don't even know what "a net lessening of repression in China" is supposed to mean; Hong Kong used to have plenty of freedom that it now lacks, while the rest of China hasn't gained freedom from entrance of Hong Kong. The most charitable interpretation of this logic is that you meant to say an "average lessening of repression", except that doesn't mean there's less repression at all, the borders of China have just been redefined to change the average. Then you ask "So is the Great Firewall an example of increasing repression, or slowly opening up to outside information and influences, but just not all at once?", a twisted question that pretends as if "slowly opening up to outside information and influences" is somehow not a repressive dystopia, as if it's not a horrifically totalitarian action that assumes the state can justify controlling what outside information & influence is allowed to be seen by citizens, the very foundation and core of a repressive dystopia. If the US did the same thing, would you not say that it's a repressive dystopia? Without government intervention, the public would have widespread access to independent information. And then of course China has only tightened its grip on media & press in the last 3 years [1]. I'll grant that "military expansion" is not repressive in itself but simply denotes the fact that China's repressive dystopia is becoming more powerful. I'm at least relieved that you know the horrific facts of what's going on, but it seems to me that you're just turning a blind eye to the depiction of repression that they represent. I am curious though what you're referring to when you say "other things I hear which I didn't use to which are promising". [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-parliament-media/china-tightens-grip-on-media-with-regulator-reshuffle-idUSKBN1GX0JG https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-parliament-media/ch...

kbenson 5y ago

> Starting from a dismissive point that China's dystopianism is somehow absurd Not meant to be dismissive, not what I said, and not what I was trying to convey. I'll say it again and very clearly: first prove that China is or is moving towards a repressive dystopia. > has fairly obvious answers involving "Uighurs, suppression of speech, Hong Kong, military expansion, political influence, the Great Firewall" that didn't exist before and that you've not addressed at all. Stating things that exist is not an examination of whether they they were better or worse than previously, or how periods of time compare. - Uighurs. They're being oppressed. Are the the first group China has oppressed? If not, then does their oppression seem more or less heavy handed and extreme than those examples that came previously? I don't know enough to compare them, but there has been opression of Tibetans in China for decades, possibly since the inception of the communist party there. - Hong Kong - This is China exerting control in a way similar to what it does for the rest of its country over an island they believe is part of their country. Is this China becoming more repressive, or just applying the same standards its known for to a populace that was not previously subject to it. It sucks, but is it necessarily an example of China becoming more oppressive? I'm not so sure. Any capitulation at all on China's part, even if a far cry from what people in Hong Kong want, might be a net lessening of repression in China if allowed in other locales of their country. - Military expansion - Hardly an example of one thing over another. Military expansion is orthogonal to whether they are repressive or a dystopia. If the populace supports it (and all indications I've seen are that the Chinese people are experiencing a massive surge of nationalism as their country comes to prominence), then it hardly needs to be repressive. - Great Firewall - Taken in context, this is much more ambiguous than presented I think. In 2008, only 22% of Chinese citizens had even used the internet.[1] It's only at about 71% as of 2021. When the Great Firewall was implemented in 1997, I see some indications that well under a million people even had access to it in China.[2] It's speculation on my part, but I have to think given China's goals that there would be a lot less people with access to any sort of internet if they didn't have some control mechanism in place. So is the Great Firewall an example of increasing repression, or slowly opening up to outside information and influences, but just not all at once? I imagine the average Chinese citizen has far more access to information from outside their country than they did in the past, even with the Great Firewall. > that didn't exist before and that you've not addressed at all. I didn't address them because throwing out names of things is not an argument. No argument was put forth, because if a coherent one was you would think they might examine these things as I have and acknowledge that they think they are evidence of increased oppression in spite of that. I would accept that as someone putting in the effort to understand what they were talking about, rather than just putting forth something without any real indication that it makes sense. > One critical component of questioning things is that you look at available information and address questions to what we think we know, not dismiss available information and say we shouldn't trust everything we read. With that in mind, what questions do you have about available information about China's repressive dystopia? I outlined them above. I'm not expecting you or anyone else to accept them as fact. I honestly don't know enough about China to know how the majority of those items stand up to scrutiny, but I've been hearing about China for enough decades now to realize the bad things I hear are all pretty much the same things rehashed or done over again, but there are other things I hear which I didn't use to which are promising, so I think it's something that actually deserves some attention and a fair shake at being discussed, whether it turns out they seem to be getting worse or better. And, to be clear, yet again, because this entire set of exchanges seems to be people thinking I'm defending China for no reason and think they're great or something, I have no real love for China. I think they do lots of horrible shit. I have never been there, I have no investments there, I have no relations or family involved with it in any way I'm aware of. But purely on a humanitarian level, I think there might just be cause to be optimistic on China's future outlook, because even though it's hard to get good useful information on it, to me it seems like it might just be trending in a good direction, even if it might take a long time to get to something we would consider acceptable. I would want to know if I'm wrong through, and I'm willing to accept arguments that I'm wrong, but if you look you'll see a dearth of argument provided here. I want to know if I'm wrong, but I'm not going to let people just yell "you're wrong!" at without evidence be what convinces me. And if people don't know enough to argue about those things (at least as little as I do which allows me to put them in some minimal context), what are they doing throwing them out as evidence? 1: https://www.statista.com/statistics/236963/penetration-rate-of-internet-users-in-china/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/236963/penetration-rate-... 2: https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Internet-Users-in-China-1997-2003_fig3_222414990 https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Internet-Users-in-China-...

themacguffinman 5y ago
Stating examples where China did not previously oppress and now do oppress demonstrate China's continued streak of repressive dystopia. You seem pretty aware on the facts of China's oppression but willfully deny their depiction of a repressive dystopia. Apparently you know that oppression of Uighurs is ongoing and horrific but somehow the possibility that they're not the first group they've oppressed could be...promising? I don't know what to make of this logic. China hasn't stopped oppressing Tibetans, so this (relatively) new repression of Uighurs is literally more oppression than they've done before. And you're well aware of the benighted takeover of Hong Kong, but once again willing to overlook it as an example of repressive dystopia because it's now the same as the rest of China...which is also currently oppressed and lacks basic freedom. I don't even know what "a net lessening of repression in China" is supposed to mean; Hong Kong used to have plenty of freedom that it now lacks, while the rest of China hasn't gained freedom from entrance of Hong Kong. The most charitable interpretation of this logic is that you meant to say an "average lessening of repression", except that doesn't mean there's less repression at all, the borders of China have just been redefined to change the average. Then you ask "So is the Great Firewall an example of increasing repression, or slowly opening up to outside information and influences, but just not all at once?", a twisted question that pretends as if "slowly opening up to outside information and influences" is somehow not a repressive dystopia, as if it's not a horrifically totalitarian action that assumes the state can justify controlling what outside information & influence is allowed to be seen by citizens, the very foundation and core of a repressive dystopia. If the US did the same thing, would you not say that it's a repressive dystopia? Without government intervention, the public would have widespread access to independent information. And then of course China has only tightened its grip on media & press in the last 3 years [1]. I'll grant that "military expansion" is not repressive in itself but simply denotes the fact that China's repressive dystopia is becoming more powerful. I'm at least relieved that you know the horrific facts of what's going on, but it seems to me that you're just turning a blind eye to the depiction of repression that they represent. I am curious though what you're referring to when you say "other things I hear which I didn't use to which are promising". [1] https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-parliament-media/china-tightens-grip-on-media-with-regulator-reshuffle-idUSKBN1GX0JG https://www.reuters.com/article/us-china-parliament-media/ch...