5 ms·

The biggest problem with the saw stop is that wood when it is even slightly moist can set it off. So on a worksite if you are using lumber that hasn't had adeq

The biggest problem with the saw stop is that wood when it is even slightly moist can set it off. So on a worksite if you are using lumber that hasn't had adequate time to dry the saw stop would trip even without any limbs being in danger. Each time it would destroy itself, you would have to take the saw apart and change it which would cause a work stoppage. What irks me the most is that the SawStop owner tried to create legislation that would have required companies to use his product.

akiselev 5y ago
Do you know what moisture level sets it off? I didn't even think about that - it's easy to take Southern California's weather for granted. Here it's either pretty much ready from the lumberyard or you got it right off the mill's truck so it has to sit for a few days/weeks. The lobbying is off putting, yes, but at least his greedy self-interest would do some actual good instead of extracting evermore capital from everyone. Powertools inhabit this uncanny valley of dangerous equipment where they're cheap and accessible enough to the average joe (compared to CNC machining centers or forklifts or whatever) yet powerful enough to do some real damage. My understanding is that the primary reason the major manufacturers didn't want the SawStop wasn't cost but the fear that it would expose them to more liability by making the tools seem less dangerous. I really wish it achieves mass adoption so that the price drops even further.
- VLM 5y ago
  Thankfully the patents are starting to expire in 2024. Nothing holds pack progress quite like the patent system. The problem with causing $300 of destruction and lost work time vs possibly saving a limb is there's no fine woodworking operation or framing carpentry operation that requires a table saw. Technically if you feel unsafe working with a table saw you can do absolutely everything very slowly and tediously with a router or router table or bandsaw, or manual tools like a chisel and hammer. Anyone concerned about safety doesn't use a saw stop, they use an entirely different technology than a table saw. If you make a table saw too safe or too expensive to actually use, people will simply use something else. The death toll may or may not be lower... From a marketing perspective, the people most likely to buy a saw stop because they're scared of table saws will save a lot of money by not buying either sawstop or table saw, and they'll cut dado slots using a hand held router (more dangerous in a different way) or break down plywood using a tracksaw (unholy expensive and many crushed foot injuries) or cut beveled edges on a router table or zillions of alternatives. Meanwhile the people who don't care about safety because they're not drinking on the job or they actually use the substantial amount of safety gear that makes a table saw perfectly safe OR they only do operations on the table saw that are inherently safe by nature (as opposed to relatively low risk operations, and some very high risk operations that people do anyway), will continue to save a lot of money by the combo of not being dumb and not buying sawstop. Finally the real dumb woodworkers who get drunk and get hurt or simply don't care, will continue to not care and not buy sawstop and will not live too much longer in a world either with sawstop or without table saws anyway, so its not like the world will net improve, the Darwin award winners will continue to win Darwin awards. So sawstop is a VERY hard sell. A similar problem is well manufactured table saws are safer than homemade table saws. The concept of "put a round blade on a motor" is too simple to legislate out of existence. So making table saws illegal wouldn't eliminate table saws it would just mean the homemade ones will make table saws, on average, more dangerous. Arguably, radial arm saws are more dangerous than table saws and "the marketplace" effectively eliminated those decades ago, so its not like the marketplace dislikes safety or whatever.
  - gknoy 5y ago
    > Meanwhile the people who don't care about safety because > they're [never doing unsafe things] This sounds an awful lot like suggesting that skilled users of firearms don't care at all about safety because no one's going to deliberately do stupid stuff. It seems farcical to me. Just as with firearm safety rules, they're there to protect people from the rare moments when we are inadvertently NOT careful. History has shown that people DO do stupid stuff because they were thinking about something else, or were tired, or distracted -- hence why every firearm is treated as loaded, even if you unloaded it, and why weapon safeties exist. For table saws, having a sawstop helps prevent situations that you don't have fill control over from having bad consequences. Of course you'd still use all the same safety measures you normally would without one.
    - VLM 5y ago
      Most firearms accidents happen during normal operations like carrying, cleaning, disassembly, and so on. In comparison table saws are extremely versatile and can do many operations some of which categorically prevent entire classes of accidents. For example I have a commercially made box cutting jig with various shields and guards and its not physically possible to stick my fingers in the blade during operation. If as you claim my mind drifted and I did stupid stuff, by physical design of the operation its impossible to hurt myself. There's another class of accident involving equipment. Some people do not store firearms with trigger locks or unloaded in safes or whatever. Likewise there's an analogy with table saws where I don't rip small boards without a nice featherboard, riving knife, and some really nice plastic pushsticks. If as you claim my mind drifted, this time by use of tools it would still be physically impossible to hurt myself. There is a class of inherently dangerous operations where no safety tools exist but the table saw is so versatile and flexible people can successfully do the operation... most of the time. My point is instead of spending more money to build a "better" tablesaw to do something dumb, simply invest the money in a COTS bandsaw or track saw or jigsaw hole cutting jig or chainsaw or planer or whatever crazy risky thing there's a better, faster, safer tool. You can do dangerous things with a table saw but there's always a better safer faster way to do it with a different tool. Taking away money by making the required table saw more expensive just means the woodworker will not be able to afford the superior even safer tool for the job.
- ArchOversight 5y ago
  I have no idea on the moisture levels that cause it to be set off, I just remember reading/watching a video about it because at first it seemed like technology that SHOULD be widely used and implemented. When I first learned about it I thought it was a great idea.
  - ta988 5y ago
    I've seen it save a hand. I also noticed quite a few triggers, but it saved a hand so that was worth it.
- ajford 5y ago
  Or they went about developing their own systems. Bosch made their own system that didn't involve slamming a brake into the blade, but SawStop decided to throw some money around and get an injunction against it. All the evidence I've found is super cloudy, but early reports indicated Bosch's variant predated SawStop's release. Luckily SawStop's patents expire in a few years so hopefully we'll see other safety mechanisms similar to SawStop without the downsides and greed.
- sharedfrog 5y ago
  According to this video[1], moisture setting it off is a myth. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV6Jhw0hhBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV6Jhw0hhBI (at ~3 min)
- ta988 5y ago
  It is not all moist wood. It depends on the specie, type of cuts, etc. Thats capacitive sensing so it depends on a lot of parameters.
lcuff 5y ago
Current saw stop units do have an over-ride switch so that if you know you're going to cut questionable wood, you can disable the safety mechanism for a series of cuts. (The safety mechanism comes back on if you power the table saw off, then back on.) But of course you don't know advance for sure if the piece of wood in hand will trigger the safety mechanism or not. Not everybody's cup of tea, but our ability to be 'present' is highly variable, both person-to-person, and one person over time. I'm a somewhat daydreamy sort of person, so I work to bring focus when I'm using power tools. As a hobbyist I walk out of my shop when I get tired, emotional, or otherwise distracted, but that's not an option for everyone.
- yetihehe 5y ago
  "Check mode" with stopped saw and light/buzzer instead of brake would be pretty good for such cases (unless wood has some internal moisture).
sharedfrog 5y ago
> The biggest problem with the saw stop is that wood when it is even slightly moist can set it off. Is there any proof of this? From my understanding, that's a myth. Demonstrated here at about 3:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV6Jhw0hhBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV6Jhw0hhBI
- ta988 5y ago
  It is true, laser cut wood and burnt wood in general also sets it off. However on all saw stop saws I've used you can disable the safety when you have to cut those materials.
- myself248 5y ago
  The one at our *kerspace has tripped numerous times on damp wood, laser-cut wood, shiny laminates that didn't register as metallic but apparently it was a full moon that day or something, etc. It's also saved a few legit fingers, so it's still a net win, but you've got to have pretty deep pockets to cover all the false trips.
  - sharedfrog 5y ago
    I see, thanks!
bradknowles 5y ago
Also, cutting anything that is metal or metal-coated, or otherwise conductive in any way. You’d be surprised at the number of materials you might want to cut on a table saw that are unexpectedly conductive.

akiselev 5y ago

Do you know what moisture level sets it off? I didn't even think about that - it's easy to take Southern California's weather for granted. Here it's either pretty much ready from the lumberyard or you got it right off the mill's truck so it has to sit for a few days/weeks. The lobbying is off putting, yes, but at least his greedy self-interest would do some actual good instead of extracting evermore capital from everyone. Powertools inhabit this uncanny valley of dangerous equipment where they're cheap and accessible enough to the average joe (compared to CNC machining centers or forklifts or whatever) yet powerful enough to do some real damage. My understanding is that the primary reason the major manufacturers didn't want the SawStop wasn't cost but the fear that it would expose them to more liability by making the tools seem less dangerous. I really wish it achieves mass adoption so that the price drops even further.

VLM 5y ago
Thankfully the patents are starting to expire in 2024. Nothing holds pack progress quite like the patent system. The problem with causing $300 of destruction and lost work time vs possibly saving a limb is there's no fine woodworking operation or framing carpentry operation that requires a table saw. Technically if you feel unsafe working with a table saw you can do absolutely everything very slowly and tediously with a router or router table or bandsaw, or manual tools like a chisel and hammer. Anyone concerned about safety doesn't use a saw stop, they use an entirely different technology than a table saw. If you make a table saw too safe or too expensive to actually use, people will simply use something else. The death toll may or may not be lower... From a marketing perspective, the people most likely to buy a saw stop because they're scared of table saws will save a lot of money by not buying either sawstop or table saw, and they'll cut dado slots using a hand held router (more dangerous in a different way) or break down plywood using a tracksaw (unholy expensive and many crushed foot injuries) or cut beveled edges on a router table or zillions of alternatives. Meanwhile the people who don't care about safety because they're not drinking on the job or they actually use the substantial amount of safety gear that makes a table saw perfectly safe OR they only do operations on the table saw that are inherently safe by nature (as opposed to relatively low risk operations, and some very high risk operations that people do anyway), will continue to save a lot of money by the combo of not being dumb and not buying sawstop. Finally the real dumb woodworkers who get drunk and get hurt or simply don't care, will continue to not care and not buy sawstop and will not live too much longer in a world either with sawstop or without table saws anyway, so its not like the world will net improve, the Darwin award winners will continue to win Darwin awards. So sawstop is a VERY hard sell. A similar problem is well manufactured table saws are safer than homemade table saws. The concept of "put a round blade on a motor" is too simple to legislate out of existence. So making table saws illegal wouldn't eliminate table saws it would just mean the homemade ones will make table saws, on average, more dangerous. Arguably, radial arm saws are more dangerous than table saws and "the marketplace" effectively eliminated those decades ago, so its not like the marketplace dislikes safety or whatever.
- gknoy 5y ago
  > Meanwhile the people who don't care about safety because > they're [never doing unsafe things] This sounds an awful lot like suggesting that skilled users of firearms don't care at all about safety because no one's going to deliberately do stupid stuff. It seems farcical to me. Just as with firearm safety rules, they're there to protect people from the rare moments when we are inadvertently NOT careful. History has shown that people DO do stupid stuff because they were thinking about something else, or were tired, or distracted -- hence why every firearm is treated as loaded, even if you unloaded it, and why weapon safeties exist. For table saws, having a sawstop helps prevent situations that you don't have fill control over from having bad consequences. Of course you'd still use all the same safety measures you normally would without one.
  - VLM 5y ago
    Most firearms accidents happen during normal operations like carrying, cleaning, disassembly, and so on. In comparison table saws are extremely versatile and can do many operations some of which categorically prevent entire classes of accidents. For example I have a commercially made box cutting jig with various shields and guards and its not physically possible to stick my fingers in the blade during operation. If as you claim my mind drifted and I did stupid stuff, by physical design of the operation its impossible to hurt myself. There's another class of accident involving equipment. Some people do not store firearms with trigger locks or unloaded in safes or whatever. Likewise there's an analogy with table saws where I don't rip small boards without a nice featherboard, riving knife, and some really nice plastic pushsticks. If as you claim my mind drifted, this time by use of tools it would still be physically impossible to hurt myself. There is a class of inherently dangerous operations where no safety tools exist but the table saw is so versatile and flexible people can successfully do the operation... most of the time. My point is instead of spending more money to build a "better" tablesaw to do something dumb, simply invest the money in a COTS bandsaw or track saw or jigsaw hole cutting jig or chainsaw or planer or whatever crazy risky thing there's a better, faster, safer tool. You can do dangerous things with a table saw but there's always a better safer faster way to do it with a different tool. Taking away money by making the required table saw more expensive just means the woodworker will not be able to afford the superior even safer tool for the job.
ArchOversight 5y ago
I have no idea on the moisture levels that cause it to be set off, I just remember reading/watching a video about it because at first it seemed like technology that SHOULD be widely used and implemented. When I first learned about it I thought it was a great idea.
- ta988 5y ago
  I've seen it save a hand. I also noticed quite a few triggers, but it saved a hand so that was worth it.
ajford 5y ago
Or they went about developing their own systems. Bosch made their own system that didn't involve slamming a brake into the blade, but SawStop decided to throw some money around and get an injunction against it. All the evidence I've found is super cloudy, but early reports indicated Bosch's variant predated SawStop's release. Luckily SawStop's patents expire in a few years so hopefully we'll see other safety mechanisms similar to SawStop without the downsides and greed.
sharedfrog 5y ago
According to this video[1], moisture setting it off is a myth. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV6Jhw0hhBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV6Jhw0hhBI (at ~3 min)
ta988 5y ago
It is not all moist wood. It depends on the specie, type of cuts, etc. Thats capacitive sensing so it depends on a lot of parameters.

lcuff 5y ago

Current saw stop units do have an over-ride switch so that if you know you're going to cut questionable wood, you can disable the safety mechanism for a series of cuts. (The safety mechanism comes back on if you power the table saw off, then back on.) But of course you don't know advance for sure if the piece of wood in hand will trigger the safety mechanism or not. Not everybody's cup of tea, but our ability to be 'present' is highly variable, both person-to-person, and one person over time. I'm a somewhat daydreamy sort of person, so I work to bring focus when I'm using power tools. As a hobbyist I walk out of my shop when I get tired, emotional, or otherwise distracted, but that's not an option for everyone.

yetihehe 5y ago
"Check mode" with stopped saw and light/buzzer instead of brake would be pretty good for such cases (unless wood has some internal moisture).

sharedfrog 5y ago

> The biggest problem with the saw stop is that wood when it is even slightly moist can set it off. Is there any proof of this? From my understanding, that's a myth. Demonstrated here at about 3:00 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV6Jhw0hhBI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NV6Jhw0hhBI

ta988 5y ago
It is true, laser cut wood and burnt wood in general also sets it off. However on all saw stop saws I've used you can disable the safety when you have to cut those materials.
myself248 5y ago
The one at our *kerspace has tripped numerous times on damp wood, laser-cut wood, shiny laminates that didn't register as metallic but apparently it was a full moon that day or something, etc. It's also saved a few legit fingers, so it's still a net win, but you've got to have pretty deep pockets to cover all the false trips.
- sharedfrog 5y ago
  I see, thanks!

bradknowles 5y ago

Also, cutting anything that is metal or metal-coated, or otherwise conductive in any way. You’d be surprised at the number of materials you might want to cut on a table saw that are unexpectedly conductive.