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You're free to show me data that substantiate your claim. If you read my comment as "white men are not homophobic at all and minorities are all homophobic", tha

by Zababa 5y ago

You're free to show me data that substantiate your claim. If you read my comment as "white men are not homophobic at all and minorities are all homophobic", that's not what I meant. What I meant is that on average minorities are more homophobic than whites. I also gave data to support my claim. For example, in France, the difference of homophobia between catholics and muslims is really really big. That's not a "trope". That's something that I live daily. Edit: I'll add to that that examples of overt racism that I've seen are extremly rare compared to examples of overt homophobia. I'm honestly fed up that people like you give a free pass to minorities to not work on themselves because "they're oppressed too". Since they have the right to be homophobes since they're racial minorities, do I have to be racist because I'm gay? Is that how you think? That's not how I think at all. We both have to work on ourselves to respect others more.

jrm4 5y ago
"Data" is but so useful here. I'll tone down my claim and say that, from my lived experience, it is generally untrue of Blacks in the United States, though to the casual observer it may feel this way because we're just constantly under the microscope, and our discussions/internal fights on this are just more visible. So yes, if you rewind two decades or so, you'll see a lot of homophobia et al in our culture -- but what you'll ALSO see is that the huge majority of the same people who were pushing it before have mostly all changed for the better -- and in fact, I'll make the claim that a lot of those jokes and tropes within our community that from today's POV aged poorly, were actually really helpful steps in having people come around (I'm thinking of stand-up comedians and the like.)
- Zababa 5y ago
  I'll add my anecdotal evidence here: black people in France are also generally very respectful. Usually the homophobes I encouter are north africains/muslims/arabs, however you want to call them (edit: I realize that "however you want to call them" may not be the best way to put it. What I mean by this is that in my experience it's mostly north african people, however I have no evidence for this but have evidence for muslims. Still, not all north african people are arabs or muslims. I added "arabs" because the few kabyle people I know don't have this problem at all. It's hard to untangle everything here, and I don't want to pretend I know everything.). I also want to add that it seems that the first victims are LGBT people from these communities before white LGBT people, however they still suffer too. The stats are what they are and I don't think it's healthy to deny them. However, just like minorities have to work on their homophobia, I have to work on my xenophobia, because applying my experiences to people I encounter would be unfair, and statistics shouldn't be used to discriminate on a person to person basic. My main point is that I feel that "good thinking white people" have dropped the fight against homophobia like a hot potato because it became uncool, and talking about race and white privilege became cool, so now I can't even explain where homophobia comes from without being called a racist. Just like I would (and most/all white people would) benefit from anti racism training/interventions, I think most/all people from racial minorities would benefit from anti homophobia/LGBTphobia training/interventions. I personally don't live in the United States, but the paper I linked seems to suggest that black people are more homophobic than white people. Of course black and white isn't the only thing at play here, class is also a big factor, but I don't think you're learning anything new here. Still, denying that there's a problem is unhealthy and insulting, just like if I would deny that there's a racism problem in the US or in France.

by Zababa 5y ago

jrm4 5y ago

"Data" is but so useful here. I'll tone down my claim and say that, from my lived experience, it is generally untrue of Blacks in the United States, though to the casual observer it may feel this way because we're just constantly under the microscope, and our discussions/internal fights on this are just more visible. So yes, if you rewind two decades or so, you'll see a lot of homophobia et al in our culture -- but what you'll ALSO see is that the huge majority of the same people who were pushing it before have mostly all changed for the better -- and in fact, I'll make the claim that a lot of those jokes and tropes within our community that from today's POV aged poorly, were actually really helpful steps in having people come around (I'm thinking of stand-up comedians and the like.)

Zababa 5y ago
I'll add my anecdotal evidence here: black people in France are also generally very respectful. Usually the homophobes I encouter are north africains/muslims/arabs, however you want to call them (edit: I realize that "however you want to call them" may not be the best way to put it. What I mean by this is that in my experience it's mostly north african people, however I have no evidence for this but have evidence for muslims. Still, not all north african people are arabs or muslims. I added "arabs" because the few kabyle people I know don't have this problem at all. It's hard to untangle everything here, and I don't want to pretend I know everything.). I also want to add that it seems that the first victims are LGBT people from these communities before white LGBT people, however they still suffer too. The stats are what they are and I don't think it's healthy to deny them. However, just like minorities have to work on their homophobia, I have to work on my xenophobia, because applying my experiences to people I encounter would be unfair, and statistics shouldn't be used to discriminate on a person to person basic. My main point is that I feel that "good thinking white people" have dropped the fight against homophobia like a hot potato because it became uncool, and talking about race and white privilege became cool, so now I can't even explain where homophobia comes from without being called a racist. Just like I would (and most/all white people would) benefit from anti racism training/interventions, I think most/all people from racial minorities would benefit from anti homophobia/LGBTphobia training/interventions. I personally don't live in the United States, but the paper I linked seems to suggest that black people are more homophobic than white people. Of course black and white isn't the only thing at play here, class is also a big factor, but I don't think you're learning anything new here. Still, denying that there's a problem is unhealthy and insulting, just like if I would deny that there's a racism problem in the US or in France.