4 ms·

There isn't an assumption that all white men are racist here. Instead, I think the reasoning is that the vast majority of white men have benefited (probably unk

by orn688 5y ago

There isn't an assumption that all white men are racist here. Instead, I think the reasoning is that the vast majority of white men have benefited (probably unknowingly) from structural racism to the detriment of other groups. The training is intended to make these men aware of that in an effort to chip away at structural racism and its harmful effects.

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nobody9999 5y ago
>The training is intended to make these men aware of that in an effort to chip away at structural racism and its harmful effects. I can't speak for anyone else, but as a middle-aged white man, I am well aware (and have been for decades) that I've been the beneficiary of white male privilege. But aside from treating all humans equally, I'm not sure what else I can really do. Should I interrogate potential employers as to their hiring practices and turn down job offers if the employer hasn't sufficiently included non-white, non-male candidates? What does "sufficiently" mean in the context of the above sentence? And how should I interrogate potential employers about this? What if I really need the job to pay my bills? Should I refuse to work at all and end up on the street so I can ensure that I don't receive any special privilege/treatment? Should I give $20 to every non-white, non-male person I see to "pay them back" for the preferential treatment I (never wanted or asked for) received? I'm not claiming that institutional and individual racism and sexism don't exist. Quite the opposite, in fact. And I believe that folks should be (if they aren't already) made aware that these issues are real and negatively affect many people. That said, unless I'm an employer/hiring manager, all I can do is treat all the humans around me with simple respect and judge people based on their actions, rather than their melanin content or type of genitalia -- traits which are irrelevant to the value of a person. Edit -- I guess this isn't going to happen. More's the pity: Perhaps I'm missing something in this discussion. If so, I hope someone will enlighten me as to what that might be. Additional Edit: Apparently, I was wrong. Thank you to those who chose to respond positively rather than just rejecting my point of view out of hand. It's appreciated.
- dfxm12 5y ago
  I think you're missing the audience of this training. This isn't about you (and I think that's another issue white men have to get over). As a "nobody" :), you likely have no power to undo structural racism. Key executives of a company like Lockheed Martin, however, have some power in that regard.
  - nobody9999 5y ago
    >I think you're missing the audience of this training. This isn't about you. I think that's another issue white men have to get over. Actually, I think it's about all of us. In the sense that as long as people ignore the issue (or insist upon being deliberately obtuse about it), we're not going to fix it. I choose to do what I can. As to whether or not that will make a difference that's larger than just my own personal interactions, I don't know. I'd like to hope so, but it seems pretty unlikely. But that doesn't invalidate what I do or encourage. I prefer to model the world as I'd like it to be and act accordingly. >As a "nobody" :), you likely have no power to undo structural racism. Key executives of a company like Lockheed Martin, however, have some power in that regard. As I said: And I believe that folks should be (if they aren't already) made aware that these issues are real and negatively affect many people. No, I can't change the ideas and attitudes of everyone around me. And no, I can't make institutional racism/sexism go away all by myself. However, I can continue doing what I already do (treat others with respect regardless of their immutable traits) and encourage others to do the same.
  - telendram 5y ago
    That's not the reality. Once they arrive, these kind of trainings become Compulsory for everybody. Those who refused are fired, with cause. Well, everybody "white", of course, thus worth being "reminded" of their "privilege". And also their flaws. I mean, if they are white, they are necessarily racist. If they seem not to be, they are just hiding it. If they defend themselves, it's a proof of their privilege, and by extension their racism. If you are a man, you are also a rapist in hiding. Etc. Just pass a few hours receiving such kind of "training", get it repeated every year just in case, and we'll see how you think about it afterwards.
- 5y ago
darkhorse22 5y ago
When I start answering these hard questions about my ethnicity, one result is strong sense of white pride. It's hard to tell if that's the desired outcome or not; I'm skeptical of the sincerity of these people looking for "allies" through insults.
- benjohnson 5y ago
  Perhaps 'pride' isn't a long-term useful label. I have chosen 'appreciation' for my ancestors that worked hard and contributed to our civilization. Once viewed though that lens, you being to see kindred spirits in a lot of other races and cultures. For me, it came to a growing realization that as a white male, I often have much more in common with a new immigrant than I do with a trust-fund white kid that burning the downtown.
injb 5y ago
>>Instead, I think the reasoning is that the vast majority of white men have benefited (probably unknowingly) from structural racism to the detriment of other groups. That's not reasoning. That's an unfounded claim or assertion.
ab7675226 5y ago
It has taken us millennia to understand that the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. To claim that someone benefits from Structural Racism is an accusation. Yet Structural Racism is poorly defined and is - in practice - used as a grab-bag to contain any disparity, any grievance, and any complaint. Thus, it is impossible to defend against. Indeed to defend against it is to 'benefit from White Privilege.' Hence the Kafka-Trap book, 'White Fragility.' There is nothing good about this sort of stuff and it needs to go away.
- meeko123 5y ago
  This whole field was made up by a handful of Jewish academics. https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2020/08/02/review-of-robin-diangelos-white-fragility/ https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2020/08/02/review-of-r...

by orn688 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

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nobody9999 5y ago

>The training is intended to make these men aware of that in an effort to chip away at structural racism and its harmful effects. I can't speak for anyone else, but as a middle-aged white man, I am well aware (and have been for decades) that I've been the beneficiary of white male privilege. But aside from treating all humans equally, I'm not sure what else I can really do. Should I interrogate potential employers as to their hiring practices and turn down job offers if the employer hasn't sufficiently included non-white, non-male candidates? What does "sufficiently" mean in the context of the above sentence? And how should I interrogate potential employers about this? What if I really need the job to pay my bills? Should I refuse to work at all and end up on the street so I can ensure that I don't receive any special privilege/treatment? Should I give $20 to every non-white, non-male person I see to "pay them back" for the preferential treatment I (never wanted or asked for) received? I'm not claiming that institutional and individual racism and sexism don't exist. Quite the opposite, in fact. And I believe that folks should be (if they aren't already) made aware that these issues are real and negatively affect many people. That said, unless I'm an employer/hiring manager, all I can do is treat all the humans around me with simple respect and judge people based on their actions, rather than their melanin content or type of genitalia -- traits which are irrelevant to the value of a person. Edit -- I guess this isn't going to happen. More's the pity: Perhaps I'm missing something in this discussion. If so, I hope someone will enlighten me as to what that might be. Additional Edit: Apparently, I was wrong. Thank you to those who chose to respond positively rather than just rejecting my point of view out of hand. It's appreciated.

dfxm12 5y ago
I think you're missing the audience of this training. This isn't about you (and I think that's another issue white men have to get over). As a "nobody" :), you likely have no power to undo structural racism. Key executives of a company like Lockheed Martin, however, have some power in that regard.
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >I think you're missing the audience of this training. This isn't about you. I think that's another issue white men have to get over. Actually, I think it's about all of us. In the sense that as long as people ignore the issue (or insist upon being deliberately obtuse about it), we're not going to fix it. I choose to do what I can. As to whether or not that will make a difference that's larger than just my own personal interactions, I don't know. I'd like to hope so, but it seems pretty unlikely. But that doesn't invalidate what I do or encourage. I prefer to model the world as I'd like it to be and act accordingly. >As a "nobody" :), you likely have no power to undo structural racism. Key executives of a company like Lockheed Martin, however, have some power in that regard. As I said: And I believe that folks should be (if they aren't already) made aware that these issues are real and negatively affect many people. No, I can't change the ideas and attitudes of everyone around me. And no, I can't make institutional racism/sexism go away all by myself. However, I can continue doing what I already do (treat others with respect regardless of their immutable traits) and encourage others to do the same.
- telendram 5y ago
  That's not the reality. Once they arrive, these kind of trainings become Compulsory for everybody. Those who refused are fired, with cause. Well, everybody "white", of course, thus worth being "reminded" of their "privilege". And also their flaws. I mean, if they are white, they are necessarily racist. If they seem not to be, they are just hiding it. If they defend themselves, it's a proof of their privilege, and by extension their racism. If you are a man, you are also a rapist in hiding. Etc. Just pass a few hours receiving such kind of "training", get it repeated every year just in case, and we'll see how you think about it afterwards.
5y ago

darkhorse22 5y ago

When I start answering these hard questions about my ethnicity, one result is strong sense of white pride. It's hard to tell if that's the desired outcome or not; I'm skeptical of the sincerity of these people looking for "allies" through insults.

benjohnson 5y ago
Perhaps 'pride' isn't a long-term useful label. I have chosen 'appreciation' for my ancestors that worked hard and contributed to our civilization. Once viewed though that lens, you being to see kindred spirits in a lot of other races and cultures. For me, it came to a growing realization that as a white male, I often have much more in common with a new immigrant than I do with a trust-fund white kid that burning the downtown.

injb 5y ago

>>Instead, I think the reasoning is that the vast majority of white men have benefited (probably unknowingly) from structural racism to the detriment of other groups. That's not reasoning. That's an unfounded claim or assertion.

ab7675226 5y ago

It has taken us millennia to understand that the burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused. To claim that someone benefits from Structural Racism is an accusation. Yet Structural Racism is poorly defined and is - in practice - used as a grab-bag to contain any disparity, any grievance, and any complaint. Thus, it is impossible to defend against. Indeed to defend against it is to 'benefit from White Privilege.' Hence the Kafka-Trap book, 'White Fragility.' There is nothing good about this sort of stuff and it needs to go away.

meeko123 5y ago
This whole field was made up by a handful of Jewish academics. https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2020/08/02/review-of-robin-diangelos-white-fragility/ https://www.theoccidentalobserver.net/2020/08/02/review-of-r...