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Bullying individuals is not new. Arguing that bedrock principles of legal justice like innocent until proven guilty are quaint and antiquated in the face of the

by kian 5y ago

Bullying individuals is not new. Arguing that bedrock principles of legal justice like innocent until proven guilty are quaint and antiquated in the face of the 'horrors' of the accusations (odd that they should apply to serial killers, but new modern thought-crimes are so much worse that they should not) is relatively new, especially as a mainstream position in intellectual, academic, and political circles.

zxzax 5y ago
That has not been my experience, do you have any studies that quantify that? From my perspective, the entire concept of legal rights and due process is what is actually the new thing, considering the total span of history anyway. These were not things that anybody had 1000 years ago, and even now some political entities still don't really have it or consider it valid (unfortunately).
- caddemon 5y ago
  As far as institutional memory is concerned, new is anything that hasn't been seen in a couple generations' lifetimes, certainly not 1000s of years. This is also why I included "recently en vogue" in my prior comment, I'm not claiming that this thought process has literally never been seen before. Just that some cultural phenomena display a back and forth pattern, with a timescale such that it will feel entirely new to the current population when it's out in full force. Further, the negative impacts of the extreme adoption are precisely what will push the pendulum back eventually. Also I will clarify I am speaking from a US-centric perspective. Are you not in the US? I have seen multiple academic circles seriously come to the consensus that innocent until proven guilty is not good as a general principle. This sort of thing IME occurs on mailing lists or in department meetings, and it has also ramped up considerably in just the last few years. I've never looked for literature on the topic, perhaps the institutions I am affiliated with just suck. But given the many others reporting similar sentiments I suspect there will be some literature on it as a broader phenomenon, at least in the US, down the road.

by kian 5y ago

zxzax 5y ago

That has not been my experience, do you have any studies that quantify that? From my perspective, the entire concept of legal rights and due process is what is actually the new thing, considering the total span of history anyway. These were not things that anybody had 1000 years ago, and even now some political entities still don't really have it or consider it valid (unfortunately).

caddemon 5y ago
As far as institutional memory is concerned, new is anything that hasn't been seen in a couple generations' lifetimes, certainly not 1000s of years. This is also why I included "recently en vogue" in my prior comment, I'm not claiming that this thought process has literally never been seen before. Just that some cultural phenomena display a back and forth pattern, with a timescale such that it will feel entirely new to the current population when it's out in full force. Further, the negative impacts of the extreme adoption are precisely what will push the pendulum back eventually. Also I will clarify I am speaking from a US-centric perspective. Are you not in the US? I have seen multiple academic circles seriously come to the consensus that innocent until proven guilty is not good as a general principle. This sort of thing IME occurs on mailing lists or in department meetings, and it has also ramped up considerably in just the last few years. I've never looked for literature on the topic, perhaps the institutions I am affiliated with just suck. But given the many others reporting similar sentiments I suspect there will be some literature on it as a broader phenomenon, at least in the US, down the road.