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What if I want to work just for a few hours on a Friday night and that's it? What if I want to directly interface with Uber without anyone being above me (the u

What if I want to work just for a few hours on a Friday night and that's it? What if I want to directly interface with Uber without anyone being above me (the union in this case)? More power is stripped from me in this case as it always happens; Union = less freedom for an individual.

LatteLazy 5y ago
In the uk you're not obliged to join, you still have to option to accept whatever they negotiate (still without joining) and you can just choose to keep doing whatever you were doing before. There's very little upside to uk unions but there is very little downside either, they're basically pointless...
- whitepaint 5y ago
  > In the uk you're not obliged to join Thank god. I wish it was a standard for absolutely every job that has unions. Leave it to the individual if they choose to.
  - bildung 5y ago
    No idea where you live but it is the same in the US, since 1947.
    - josephcsible 5y ago
      This is completely true in 27 states and a few localities, but in the rest of the US, it's only true due to a technicality: if you want, you can choose to not get the union's benefits but still have to pay them dues. Obviously, this isn't what people have in mind.
airza 5y ago
Isn't it kinda weird that every single large company moves aggressively to crush labor unions if they are so bad for the individual worker? I keep seeing this perspective and it is baffling to me.
- wccrawford 5y ago
  IMO, some unions are bad for everyone. Worker and company alike. Most (maybe all?) unions are meant to oppose the company. Their stated goal is get more for the workers, which means less for the company. But to be fair, some unions actually end up helping companies that can't understand that treating your workers well actually has benefits for the company, too, and if you treat them too poorly, there will be a net detriment to the company. These unions actually help everyone, but it requires that the company really have their head up their ass. So it's not surprising to me that every single company fights the union. The whole point of the union is to fight the company on behalf of the workers.
  - gibspaulding 5y ago
    > But to be fair, some unions actually end up helping companies... When I was in college I worked for a roofing company where there actually seemed to be a pretty healthy relationship between the local unions and the companies employing their members. The unions ran a great apprenticeship program, were super strict on safety, and seemed to have a reputation in the area for doing good work. This meant that companies had a good idea what they were getting when they paid the premium for a journeyman. My impression was that being a "union shop" was a differentiator for businesses and that there were plenty of customers that were willing to pay more for the confidence that things would be done right. Of course the common complaint for a situation like this is that you end up with journeymen who abuse their position and don't meet the standards they are supposed to, but I didn't seem much of this. I got the impression that the union did a pretty good job of keeping their members in line, especially when it came to safety infractions. It's a shame that this doesn't seem to be more common. It was an amazing program since if you could land an apprenticeship (and they were desperate for people) you could theoretically climb the ladder from poverty to the middle class in 5 years.
- seneca 5y ago
  > Isn't it kinda weird that every single large company moves aggressively to crush labor unions if they are so bad for the individual worker? It's entirely possible for unions to be bad for both the company and the workers. A loss for one is not inherently a gain for the other.
mschuster91 5y ago
> What if I want to work just for a few hours on a Friday night and that's it? In Germany, we have a special class of jobs ("450€ Jobs") for side jobs - regulated under labor laws, no need for fake "self employment" stuff.
- Vespasian 5y ago
  Additional that whole "fake contractor instead of employee" business has long been made illegal here and has not destroyed real contracting businesses nor has it prevented minimum wage jobs (and illegally below minimum) to exist.
ookdatnog 5y ago
Showing that there exists an example situation where a union reduces your freedom does not demonstrate that, taken on the whole, unions reduce the freedom of the workers.
- whitepaint 5y ago
  What if I don't want to join any unions and I just want to do what I want? What rights does the government have to tell me that I must join an union? Unions are free to exist but it can never be mandatory in a free functioning society.
  - klyrs 5y ago
    Why don't you work for yourself, if your desire for individual liberty is so strong?
    - whitepaint 5y ago
      I actually do. But how is your comment related to what I said?
      - klyrs 5y ago
        You asked: > What if I don't want to join any unions and I just want to do what I want? You already have freedom from union membership, and you're exercising it. What's the problem? Also, you asked: > What rights does the government have to tell me that I must join an union? Common misconception. A union can compel an employer to be a closed shop through a bargaining agreement. The government doesn't tell you that you must join a union; the employer will tell you that you need to join the union because their relationship with the union is more important than their relationship with you. What the government can do is forbid the employer from union-busting, and also forbid closed-ship agreements.
  - Mordisquitos 5y ago
    > What if I don't want to join any unions and I just want to do what I want? Then you do not join any unions. Union membership is never mandatory in the United Kingdom: https://www.gov.uk/join-trade-union/trade-union-membership-your-employment-rights https://www.gov.uk/join-trade-union/trade-union-membership-y...
Jenk 5y ago
> What if I want to work just for a few hours on a Friday night and that's it? Out of curiosity - what has that got to do with unions?
- whitepaint 5y ago
  Unions = Uber having to pay employee benefits and similar things = Strict requirements from Uber = No way I can do it for a few hours when I want to.
  - Jenk 5y ago
    Benefits have stipulations. Pro-rata being one of them, others are minimum hours to be applicable. Anything else?
    - whitepaint 5y ago
      What counter-argument are you trying to make here? I argued unions strip the individual freedom, and your response is trying to say exactly what..?
      - Jenk 5y ago
        That they don't.
    - whitepaint 5y ago
      You just proved my point. What if I don't want benefits because they impose stipulations? What if I just want to work for a few hours on a Friday night? And I won't be able to do so because of the union. That stifles my individual freedom.
      - Jenk 5y ago
        Stipulations on being eligible (and thus "restricted") by them. I.e., in your scenario you are _not_ restricted. I've got to conclude you are deliberately misconstruing the points I've made because you have some kind of "Unions are evil" agenda to push. Otherwise how the hell did you come to the conclusion that an employment benefit that doesn't even affect your fictitious scenario is somehow a demonstration of unions are bad.
matheusmoreira 5y ago
The union's power comes from turning individual workers into a group. In order to have collective bargaining power, inidividuals will have to sacrifice some of their freedoms. This is not a problem if all employees want the same things. For example, unions can demand higher pay and better hours because no individual worker will accept working in worse conditions. In this case, the workers sacrifice the freedom to accept a job that isn't up to standard. If there are no other workers available to supply the corporation's demand, it is forced to raise pay and lower hours. I would argue having zero leverage against rich corporations is always worse than sacrificing a few freedoms. In some cases though workers don't actually agree on what they want. This means the workers are not actually united in their cause and the union of course breaks down.
- whitepaint 5y ago
  If I want to work for Uber given their conditions, who has the right to tell me I can't? Who has the right to tell me I must obey by some group's rules first (the union in this case)? It's bizarre. I am all for unions. Go and organize people. But unions can't have special privileges granted by politicians (who very often are just bribed by those that run the union), and unions must never be mandatory to join. Mandate to join an union is immoral.
  - Mauricebranagh 5y ago
    Pre entry closed shop is illegal in the UK
    - bildung 5y ago
      It also is in the US, but apparently it is a common trope by anti-union politicians to act like this isn't already law.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
      - josephcsible 5y ago
odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
Society chooses that. You don't live alone but in a group. What if I, as a boss, only want to promote women that have sex with me? What if I as a hiring manager don't want to hire black people? What if I as a teenager accept to work for a dollar an hour with 2x unpaid overtime? Why should I even pay taxes to support social programs? All these are against my 'freedom' There is a big big big difference in power between Uber(others) and individuals, and just because someone small minority of people will have their 'freedoms' trampled, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what is best for society at large.
- whitepaint 5y ago
  Your given examples are absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. If I want to work for Uber there are 2 parties involved (me and Uber). And both of them want to work with each other. Your examples include just one party wanting something and using coercion on another party (except the example of taxes, which is a completely different subject all together).
  - odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
    No it doesn't and I am sorry you think that. I know some women that climbed the corporate ladder (in big national baks) by sleeping around, and bosses that were proud of it. two people only, and it is still something we don't want to happen and make rules about it as it can backfire for all. You can say all that you want about working 4 hours on friday night with uber, but here is the thing, Uber has 100% full control over if you will or not work with them. You have 0 control. Bad ratings? Too many drivers? You come from some nationality that is known for 'bad driving' (pick whatever the fuck you want as an excuse). They have 100% the power. You have zero. If they say: 'if even one person gives you less than 5 stars, you are out of here' and you have no recourse whatsoever. This is what we as a society want to prevent. This unilateral power dynamic. I'm european. I have seen good unions, amazing unions, and very shitty ones. I'm not 100% pro-union, but I believe that there should be mechanisms to protect the ones with no leverage, because if we don't, the less fortunate will just be modern day slaves to big corporations, only the name will be different.
  - 5y ago
eplanit 5y ago
Yes. I'm not sure why this would be celebrated -- it's the first step in turning Uber into a taxi company. That'll teach those low-skilled workers that an independent, self-managed career is just not in the cards for them. Shut up and drive the schedule you're assigned. A sad outcome.

LatteLazy 5y ago

In the uk you're not obliged to join, you still have to option to accept whatever they negotiate (still without joining) and you can just choose to keep doing whatever you were doing before. There's very little upside to uk unions but there is very little downside either, they're basically pointless...

whitepaint 5y ago
> In the uk you're not obliged to join Thank god. I wish it was a standard for absolutely every job that has unions. Leave it to the individual if they choose to.
- bildung 5y ago
  No idea where you live but it is the same in the US, since 1947.
  - josephcsible 5y ago
    This is completely true in 27 states and a few localities, but in the rest of the US, it's only true due to a technicality: if you want, you can choose to not get the union's benefits but still have to pay them dues. Obviously, this isn't what people have in mind.

airza 5y ago

Isn't it kinda weird that every single large company moves aggressively to crush labor unions if they are so bad for the individual worker? I keep seeing this perspective and it is baffling to me.

wccrawford 5y ago
IMO, some unions are bad for everyone. Worker and company alike. Most (maybe all?) unions are meant to oppose the company. Their stated goal is get more for the workers, which means less for the company. But to be fair, some unions actually end up helping companies that can't understand that treating your workers well actually has benefits for the company, too, and if you treat them too poorly, there will be a net detriment to the company. These unions actually help everyone, but it requires that the company really have their head up their ass. So it's not surprising to me that every single company fights the union. The whole point of the union is to fight the company on behalf of the workers.
- gibspaulding 5y ago
  > But to be fair, some unions actually end up helping companies... When I was in college I worked for a roofing company where there actually seemed to be a pretty healthy relationship between the local unions and the companies employing their members. The unions ran a great apprenticeship program, were super strict on safety, and seemed to have a reputation in the area for doing good work. This meant that companies had a good idea what they were getting when they paid the premium for a journeyman. My impression was that being a "union shop" was a differentiator for businesses and that there were plenty of customers that were willing to pay more for the confidence that things would be done right. Of course the common complaint for a situation like this is that you end up with journeymen who abuse their position and don't meet the standards they are supposed to, but I didn't seem much of this. I got the impression that the union did a pretty good job of keeping their members in line, especially when it came to safety infractions. It's a shame that this doesn't seem to be more common. It was an amazing program since if you could land an apprenticeship (and they were desperate for people) you could theoretically climb the ladder from poverty to the middle class in 5 years.
seneca 5y ago
> Isn't it kinda weird that every single large company moves aggressively to crush labor unions if they are so bad for the individual worker? It's entirely possible for unions to be bad for both the company and the workers. A loss for one is not inherently a gain for the other.

mschuster91 5y ago

> What if I want to work just for a few hours on a Friday night and that's it? In Germany, we have a special class of jobs ("450€ Jobs") for side jobs - regulated under labor laws, no need for fake "self employment" stuff.

Vespasian 5y ago
Additional that whole "fake contractor instead of employee" business has long been made illegal here and has not destroyed real contracting businesses nor has it prevented minimum wage jobs (and illegally below minimum) to exist.

ookdatnog 5y ago

Showing that there exists an example situation where a union reduces your freedom does not demonstrate that, taken on the whole, unions reduce the freedom of the workers.

whitepaint 5y ago
What if I don't want to join any unions and I just want to do what I want? What rights does the government have to tell me that I must join an union? Unions are free to exist but it can never be mandatory in a free functioning society.
- klyrs 5y ago
  Why don't you work for yourself, if your desire for individual liberty is so strong?
  - whitepaint 5y ago
    I actually do. But how is your comment related to what I said?
    - klyrs 5y ago
      You asked: > What if I don't want to join any unions and I just want to do what I want? You already have freedom from union membership, and you're exercising it. What's the problem? Also, you asked: > What rights does the government have to tell me that I must join an union? Common misconception. A union can compel an employer to be a closed shop through a bargaining agreement. The government doesn't tell you that you must join a union; the employer will tell you that you need to join the union because their relationship with the union is more important than their relationship with you. What the government can do is forbid the employer from union-busting, and also forbid closed-ship agreements.
- Mordisquitos 5y ago
  > What if I don't want to join any unions and I just want to do what I want? Then you do not join any unions. Union membership is never mandatory in the United Kingdom: https://www.gov.uk/join-trade-union/trade-union-membership-your-employment-rights https://www.gov.uk/join-trade-union/trade-union-membership-y...

Jenk 5y ago

> What if I want to work just for a few hours on a Friday night and that's it? Out of curiosity - what has that got to do with unions?

whitepaint 5y ago
Unions = Uber having to pay employee benefits and similar things = Strict requirements from Uber = No way I can do it for a few hours when I want to.
- Jenk 5y ago
  Benefits have stipulations. Pro-rata being one of them, others are minimum hours to be applicable. Anything else?
  - whitepaint 5y ago
    What counter-argument are you trying to make here? I argued unions strip the individual freedom, and your response is trying to say exactly what..?
    - Jenk 5y ago
      That they don't.
  - whitepaint 5y ago
    You just proved my point. What if I don't want benefits because they impose stipulations? What if I just want to work for a few hours on a Friday night? And I won't be able to do so because of the union. That stifles my individual freedom.
    - Jenk 5y ago
      Stipulations on being eligible (and thus "restricted") by them. I.e., in your scenario you are _not_ restricted. I've got to conclude you are deliberately misconstruing the points I've made because you have some kind of "Unions are evil" agenda to push. Otherwise how the hell did you come to the conclusion that an employment benefit that doesn't even affect your fictitious scenario is somehow a demonstration of unions are bad.

matheusmoreira 5y ago

The union's power comes from turning individual workers into a group. In order to have collective bargaining power, inidividuals will have to sacrifice some of their freedoms. This is not a problem if all employees want the same things. For example, unions can demand higher pay and better hours because no individual worker will accept working in worse conditions. In this case, the workers sacrifice the freedom to accept a job that isn't up to standard. If there are no other workers available to supply the corporation's demand, it is forced to raise pay and lower hours. I would argue having zero leverage against rich corporations is always worse than sacrificing a few freedoms. In some cases though workers don't actually agree on what they want. This means the workers are not actually united in their cause and the union of course breaks down.

whitepaint 5y ago
If I want to work for Uber given their conditions, who has the right to tell me I can't? Who has the right to tell me I must obey by some group's rules first (the union in this case)? It's bizarre. I am all for unions. Go and organize people. But unions can't have special privileges granted by politicians (who very often are just bribed by those that run the union), and unions must never be mandatory to join. Mandate to join an union is immoral.
- Mauricebranagh 5y ago
  Pre entry closed shop is illegal in the UK
  - bildung 5y ago
    It also is in the US, but apparently it is a common trope by anti-union politicians to act like this isn't already law.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - josephcsible 5y ago

odshoifsdhfs 5y ago

Society chooses that. You don't live alone but in a group. What if I, as a boss, only want to promote women that have sex with me? What if I as a hiring manager don't want to hire black people? What if I as a teenager accept to work for a dollar an hour with 2x unpaid overtime? Why should I even pay taxes to support social programs? All these are against my 'freedom' There is a big big big difference in power between Uber(others) and individuals, and just because someone small minority of people will have their 'freedoms' trampled, it doesn't mean that we shouldn't do what is best for society at large.

whitepaint 5y ago
Your given examples are absolutely irrelevant to the discussion. If I want to work for Uber there are 2 parties involved (me and Uber). And both of them want to work with each other. Your examples include just one party wanting something and using coercion on another party (except the example of taxes, which is a completely different subject all together).
- odshoifsdhfs 5y ago
  No it doesn't and I am sorry you think that. I know some women that climbed the corporate ladder (in big national baks) by sleeping around, and bosses that were proud of it. two people only, and it is still something we don't want to happen and make rules about it as it can backfire for all. You can say all that you want about working 4 hours on friday night with uber, but here is the thing, Uber has 100% full control over if you will or not work with them. You have 0 control. Bad ratings? Too many drivers? You come from some nationality that is known for 'bad driving' (pick whatever the fuck you want as an excuse). They have 100% the power. You have zero. If they say: 'if even one person gives you less than 5 stars, you are out of here' and you have no recourse whatsoever. This is what we as a society want to prevent. This unilateral power dynamic. I'm european. I have seen good unions, amazing unions, and very shitty ones. I'm not 100% pro-union, but I believe that there should be mechanisms to protect the ones with no leverage, because if we don't, the less fortunate will just be modern day slaves to big corporations, only the name will be different.
- 5y ago

eplanit 5y ago

Yes. I'm not sure why this would be celebrated -- it's the first step in turning Uber into a taxi company. That'll teach those low-skilled workers that an independent, self-managed career is just not in the cards for them. Shut up and drive the schedule you're assigned. A sad outcome.