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Have you tried just not using it?? Or developing self control?? Surely it's like saying bottles need to be harder to get into because I like drinking alcohol

Have you tried just not using it?? Or developing self control?? Surely it's like saying bottles need to be harder to get into because I like drinking alcohol too much... Or cars need to accelerate slower because I love speeding and can't resist permanently holding down the accelerator pedal, even at risk to my own health and wellbeing

pjerem 5y ago
It’s not that simple, it’s now well known that social media addiction is a thing. Not being able to self control is exactly what defines an addiction.
- 72deluxe 5y ago
  There are all manner of addictions that can be "assisted"/made worse with technology. The solution isn't in the technology though - it surely starts with the person?? Should my toaster warn me if I use it too often in an hour? I might put weight on with all that toast I am eating. Should my coffee machine warn me if I make too many coffees? I might have too much caffeine and suffer heart problems. Should my app warn me if I use it too much? I might be a workaholic and spend too much time in Excel. Who is in control of the toaster? Me or the toaster? Who is in control of the coffee machine? Me or the coffee machine? Who is in control of the phone/PC/app? Me or the phone/PC/app?
hhh 5y ago
I don’t think this is a fair comparison. Phones are on people essentially 24/7 now, there are few/no times where you are not connected. For alcoholism, a fair comparison would be a flask that buzzes to remind you it’s there and tell you there’s something you should check inside. Telling people to just ‘develop self control’ is extremely hard when on a societal scale, these services are becoming increasingly interwoven with daily life and participation in wider society. Opting out is an active choice to move against the grain, and you could suffer socially for it. This isn’t something that should weigh on one person alone.
- 72deluxe 5y ago
  All choices have effects. If you are suffering mentally due to your activities and cutting out causes "social suffering", surely it is an active choice where you decide one is greater than the other?? And even more so in the case of your mental health - what's more important, your mental health or seeing photos of your friend's dog? What even is "suffering socially"? If I am an alcoholic and decide to quit drinking, is it the local pub's fault if I won't see my friends again? I am surely "suffering socially" as all my friends are at the pub. An individual's actions weigh on that individual alone. I don't see how you could say otherwise? If I walk out of a room of people, who else should it weigh on? I walked out of the room. If I leave the local bowling club, is it their fault I won't see them as often? I quit the bowling club, not the other way around. You are right that some things are interwoven but they are not mandatory. People survived in the 1980s without the Internet, without Facebook and without Instagram. How did they ever manage?? Or are you saying that I need to use Instagram to be able to live a normal life? If so, I don't exist because I don't have an Instagram account. And that was a deliberate decision - it weighed on me alone. If we replaced the word "Instagram" with "AOL", you can see how faddish such "necessary" tech is and how blown-out-of-proportion the issues with not having an account are. Imagine the horror of not being on AOL in the 90s... yet people survived. Or replace "Instagram" with "Bebo" or "MySpace" - is it still necessary to have such things??
adrianN 5y ago
Ease of access to the thing you're addicted to is a big factor for relapse probability. That's one reason why it's so hard for people with food addiction to lose weight. Developing self control is a lot harder than you make it seem.
- 72deluxe 5y ago
  But developing self control isn't impossible, else EVERYBODY would be "addicted" to all manner of things - alcohol, smoking, food, sex, shopping, hoarding - all of them. As these things aren't experienced by everybody, there must be a possibility that self control can be cultivated. It also is supported by laws that punish you for lack of self-control: murder in the case of rage, stealing in the case of greed etc. In all cases I am sure the addiction-help courses encourage you to not use/take the thing you are addicted to. They are pushing towards self control, else it'd be a pointless thing to undertake.. In this case it's totally possible to just not use the app - uninstall it, or don't launch it, or don't pick up your phone. Buy a cheap smart wristband and only enable important notifications to cut out the noise? I wonder if lack of notification lights is anything to do with it? About 20 years ago the Nokias etc. had notification lights and even the early Android phones had them, which meant you knew to look at it as it gently flashed. They seem to have fallen out of popularity and so people now look at their phone all of the time just in case there is something they have missed, and then develop a habit of looking, which only gets worse and worse. You end up training yourself to do the habit, just like biting your nails, or a nervous tick where you scratch your head at certain times. If the phone was off all of the time until something actually important happened (ie a notification light), or you developed the skill to only look at it at set times throughout the day perhaps that'd help. If not, then surely ALL apps need a "take a break" feature built in. I mean, I could be spending way too much time inside Notepad... or YouTube... or VLC... Is Notepad, YouTube and VLC to blame if I spend all the time looking at them?? Or is it my fault? Perhaps I should take responsibility for constantly using Notepad, YouTube and VLC instead of blaming the app.
  - papito 5y ago
    I don't think we are blaming the apps. The point is that I don't want to be addicted. The solution is not "just be stronger".
elliekelly 5y ago
We add deliberate friction to dangerous activities all the time. Speed bumps, for example, for those who lack the “self control” to follow the posted limits.
- 72deluxe 5y ago
  That's a good point, but we don't only sell blunt knives in case someone goes on a stabbing rampage. Nobody would blame the knife for the rampage.
  - Der_Einzige 5y ago
    Ironically, a large portion of people are willing to support legislation like the Brady bill which would make it legal to go after the manufacturer of guns which are used in mass shootings. Many people in america do blame colt, Winchester, Remington, etc for ever even manufacturing these weapons in the first place. I've heard that the UK is also very strict about knives so maybe some of that can happen there too...
dang 5y ago
Please don't cross into personal attack in HN comments. It just makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

pjerem 5y ago

It’s not that simple, it’s now well known that social media addiction is a thing. Not being able to self control is exactly what defines an addiction.

72deluxe 5y ago
There are all manner of addictions that can be "assisted"/made worse with technology. The solution isn't in the technology though - it surely starts with the person?? Should my toaster warn me if I use it too often in an hour? I might put weight on with all that toast I am eating. Should my coffee machine warn me if I make too many coffees? I might have too much caffeine and suffer heart problems. Should my app warn me if I use it too much? I might be a workaholic and spend too much time in Excel. Who is in control of the toaster? Me or the toaster? Who is in control of the coffee machine? Me or the coffee machine? Who is in control of the phone/PC/app? Me or the phone/PC/app?

hhh 5y ago

I don’t think this is a fair comparison. Phones are on people essentially 24/7 now, there are few/no times where you are not connected. For alcoholism, a fair comparison would be a flask that buzzes to remind you it’s there and tell you there’s something you should check inside. Telling people to just ‘develop self control’ is extremely hard when on a societal scale, these services are becoming increasingly interwoven with daily life and participation in wider society. Opting out is an active choice to move against the grain, and you could suffer socially for it. This isn’t something that should weigh on one person alone.

72deluxe 5y ago
All choices have effects. If you are suffering mentally due to your activities and cutting out causes "social suffering", surely it is an active choice where you decide one is greater than the other?? And even more so in the case of your mental health - what's more important, your mental health or seeing photos of your friend's dog? What even is "suffering socially"? If I am an alcoholic and decide to quit drinking, is it the local pub's fault if I won't see my friends again? I am surely "suffering socially" as all my friends are at the pub. An individual's actions weigh on that individual alone. I don't see how you could say otherwise? If I walk out of a room of people, who else should it weigh on? I walked out of the room. If I leave the local bowling club, is it their fault I won't see them as often? I quit the bowling club, not the other way around. You are right that some things are interwoven but they are not mandatory. People survived in the 1980s without the Internet, without Facebook and without Instagram. How did they ever manage?? Or are you saying that I need to use Instagram to be able to live a normal life? If so, I don't exist because I don't have an Instagram account. And that was a deliberate decision - it weighed on me alone. If we replaced the word "Instagram" with "AOL", you can see how faddish such "necessary" tech is and how blown-out-of-proportion the issues with not having an account are. Imagine the horror of not being on AOL in the 90s... yet people survived. Or replace "Instagram" with "Bebo" or "MySpace" - is it still necessary to have such things??

adrianN 5y ago

Ease of access to the thing you're addicted to is a big factor for relapse probability. That's one reason why it's so hard for people with food addiction to lose weight. Developing self control is a lot harder than you make it seem.

72deluxe 5y ago
But developing self control isn't impossible, else EVERYBODY would be "addicted" to all manner of things - alcohol, smoking, food, sex, shopping, hoarding - all of them. As these things aren't experienced by everybody, there must be a possibility that self control can be cultivated. It also is supported by laws that punish you for lack of self-control: murder in the case of rage, stealing in the case of greed etc. In all cases I am sure the addiction-help courses encourage you to not use/take the thing you are addicted to. They are pushing towards self control, else it'd be a pointless thing to undertake.. In this case it's totally possible to just not use the app - uninstall it, or don't launch it, or don't pick up your phone. Buy a cheap smart wristband and only enable important notifications to cut out the noise? I wonder if lack of notification lights is anything to do with it? About 20 years ago the Nokias etc. had notification lights and even the early Android phones had them, which meant you knew to look at it as it gently flashed. They seem to have fallen out of popularity and so people now look at their phone all of the time just in case there is something they have missed, and then develop a habit of looking, which only gets worse and worse. You end up training yourself to do the habit, just like biting your nails, or a nervous tick where you scratch your head at certain times. If the phone was off all of the time until something actually important happened (ie a notification light), or you developed the skill to only look at it at set times throughout the day perhaps that'd help. If not, then surely ALL apps need a "take a break" feature built in. I mean, I could be spending way too much time inside Notepad... or YouTube... or VLC... Is Notepad, YouTube and VLC to blame if I spend all the time looking at them?? Or is it my fault? Perhaps I should take responsibility for constantly using Notepad, YouTube and VLC instead of blaming the app.
- papito 5y ago
  I don't think we are blaming the apps. The point is that I don't want to be addicted. The solution is not "just be stronger".

elliekelly 5y ago

We add deliberate friction to dangerous activities all the time. Speed bumps, for example, for those who lack the “self control” to follow the posted limits.

72deluxe 5y ago
That's a good point, but we don't only sell blunt knives in case someone goes on a stabbing rampage. Nobody would blame the knife for the rampage.
- Der_Einzige 5y ago
  Ironically, a large portion of people are willing to support legislation like the Brady bill which would make it legal to go after the manufacturer of guns which are used in mass shootings. Many people in america do blame colt, Winchester, Remington, etc for ever even manufacturing these weapons in the first place. I've heard that the UK is also very strict about knives so maybe some of that can happen there too...

dang 5y ago

Please don't cross into personal attack in HN comments. It just makes everything worse. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html