5 ms·

This is a laudable opinion BUT. (Speaking about Spain). The KPIs are there because OFFICIALLY (and this is strictly so) you are not even allowed to get a tenu

This is a laudable opinion BUT. (Speaking about Spain). The KPIs are there because OFFICIALLY (and this is strictly so) you are not even allowed to get a tenured position without an absurd number of (in Maths) JCR papers IN THE FIRST QUARTILE. This is so stupid it is not even funny but how can you fight that when your PhD students depend on those metrics?

dheera 5y ago
Personally I think we need to do away with tenure. Academic institutions should just hire good researchers as employees and do good research. There was a time in history when tenure made sense, but today the tenure track process forces a lot of people to go after low-hanging fruit that has a high probability of being accepted for publication, instead of trying things that are meaningful to try but may fail.
- pfortuny 5y ago
  That is precisely why tenure is important: you can think without time pressures.
  - j7ake 5y ago
    Having tenure does not mean you do not have time pressure. You still have students and postdocs under you and you still need to win grants to do research and pay salaries. You are constantly under evaluation whether you have tenure or not.
    - burntoutfire 5y ago
      > You are constantly under evaluation whether you have tenure or not. And what happens if you're poorly evaluated? They can't fire you anyway. Will they move you to a boiler room as a punishment?
      - austinjp 5y ago
        Presumably this depends on the country and the institution, but you certainly could be "overlooked" and end up with work that is tedious and unlikely to garner plaudits. I'm sure that after a while this could lead to something approximating firing, being "asked to move on" or similar.
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - jcelerier 5y ago
    Ahah what. All my tenured professors had constant time pressures.
  - inglor_cz 5y ago
    Or without political pressures. Provided that you get tenure in the first place.
  - austinjp 5y ago
    Presumably this depends on country and institution - probably on discipline too - but every tenured academic I know works horrendously hard. Nothing lasts longer than the cash from the last funding cycle. The job becomes more and more bureaucratic and mired in red-tape. The time-pressures might often be measured in years, but they are definitely present.
einpoklum 5y ago
With respect, you're saying metrics are used because they are used. Officially or semi-officially, doesn't matter. There needs to be a collective and individual process of disowning the metrics.

dheera 5y ago

Personally I think we need to do away with tenure. Academic institutions should just hire good researchers as employees and do good research. There was a time in history when tenure made sense, but today the tenure track process forces a lot of people to go after low-hanging fruit that has a high probability of being accepted for publication, instead of trying things that are meaningful to try but may fail.

pfortuny 5y ago
That is precisely why tenure is important: you can think without time pressures.
- j7ake 5y ago
  Having tenure does not mean you do not have time pressure. You still have students and postdocs under you and you still need to win grants to do research and pay salaries. You are constantly under evaluation whether you have tenure or not.
  - burntoutfire 5y ago
    > You are constantly under evaluation whether you have tenure or not. And what happens if you're poorly evaluated? They can't fire you anyway. Will they move you to a boiler room as a punishment?
    - austinjp 5y ago
      Presumably this depends on the country and the institution, but you certainly could be "overlooked" and end up with work that is tedious and unlikely to garner plaudits. I'm sure that after a while this could lead to something approximating firing, being "asked to move on" or similar.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- jcelerier 5y ago
  Ahah what. All my tenured professors had constant time pressures.
- inglor_cz 5y ago
  Or without political pressures. Provided that you get tenure in the first place.
- austinjp 5y ago
  Presumably this depends on country and institution - probably on discipline too - but every tenured academic I know works horrendously hard. Nothing lasts longer than the cash from the last funding cycle. The job becomes more and more bureaucratic and mired in red-tape. The time-pressures might often be measured in years, but they are definitely present.

einpoklum 5y ago

With respect, you're saying metrics are used because they are used. Officially or semi-officially, doesn't matter. There needs to be a collective and individual process of disowning the metrics.