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> The issue as described in the article is holding himself out as a “professional engineer” because that implies licensure. I will guarantee you that is not ho

by tharne 5y ago

> The issue as described in the article is holding himself out as a “professional engineer” because that implies licensure. I will guarantee you that is not how that vast majority of the population would interpret it. Very few people even know that there is such a thing as a licensed professional engineer. Most reasonable people would take the term "professional engineer" to mean somebody who performs engineering work of some sort in a professional capacity. Actual doing something should take precedence over some license primary used to gatekeep a profession and fill state coffers with licensing fees. The fact that we still have guilds operating in the 21st century is embarrassing.

Nicksil 5y ago
>I will guarantee you that is not how that vast majority of the population would interpret it. I disagree. >Very few people even know that there is such a thing as a licensed professional engineer. >Most reasonable people would take the term "professional engineer" to mean somebody who performs engineering work of some sort in a professional capacity. Where did you source this information?
- seiferteric 5y ago
  If someone calls themselves a professional musician, what would you think?
  - glitchc 5y ago
    I would think it was a non-sequiter.
    - seiferteric 5y ago
      Not really. I have an EE degree and know all about PE. My point is people commonly call themselves a professional _xyz_ for many other professions. Why should engineering be any different? Just because some organization wants you to? It is fine if you are required to have a cert to say sell things to the general public, or to have plans approved for buildings etc. but no so to try and control who gets to be called a "professional" or to regulate speech in general.
      - mcshicks 5y ago
        It's not just some organization, there is a law in california. https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf If you don't like the law, complain to your local state legislator. For me, it didn't affect my ability to do my job or get employed, so I never cared about it. I supposed they could change the name to "licensed engineer. It doesn't bother me that the person designing roads, buildings or electrical distribution systems has to be licensed. My wife has a friend (Civil Engineer, PE) and it seems like all she does is review/approve stuff done by architects.
        seiferteric 5y ago
        That's kind of the point of the whole conversation. You can't have a law that restricts what one can call yourself that does not violate the 1st amendment. Certainly you can require one to have a certificate to do certain kinds of work however.
        mcshicks 5y ago
        I'm not a lawyer, but I'm assuming whoever wrote the act at least reviewed it with one. Here is a snippet what is says. 6787. Acts constituting a misdemeanor ... (h) Use the title, or any combination of that title, of “professional engineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered engineer,” or the branch titles specified in Section 6732, or the authority titles specified in Sections 6736 and 6736.1, or “engineer-in-training,” or use any abbreviation of such title that might lead to the belief that the person is a licensed engineer, is authorized to use the titles specified in Section 6736 or 6736.1, or holds a certificate as an engineer-in-training, without being licensed, authorized, or certified as required by this chapter. So it seems like we do have a law (at least in California) that say something like that.
        seiferteric 5y ago
        You would be surprised to learn then that California has many unconstitutional laws on the books.
- mcshicks 5y ago
  Yeah I have to say I also disagree. I'm EE, 20+ years of "professional" experience and I would never use the the term "Professional Engineer" to describe myself and I don't ever recall any collegues using that term who were not licensed. Pretty much every Engineer I know understands the difference and would never use the term. It's like saying you are a lawyer when you haven't passed the bar. In fact within the industry you would typically refer to those people as a "PE" (even if they were Civil, Mechanical or Electrtical in training). Of course it is totally fine to use the term professional in a descriptive manner, i.e. "We expect you to act in a professional manner when speaking with the customer". Of course this is only an American thing as far as I know, I have no idea what the practice would be in say Australia.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
apalmer 5y ago
'Professional Engineer' is a specific legal qualification. Further this isn't a case of lay people using a term incorrectly, this is a case of a professional engineer leading a movement to change professional engineering, using the term to help establish his expertise in marketing material.

by tharne 5y ago

Nicksil 5y ago

>I will guarantee you that is not how that vast majority of the population would interpret it. I disagree. >Very few people even know that there is such a thing as a licensed professional engineer. >Most reasonable people would take the term "professional engineer" to mean somebody who performs engineering work of some sort in a professional capacity. Where did you source this information?

seiferteric 5y ago
If someone calls themselves a professional musician, what would you think?
- glitchc 5y ago
  I would think it was a non-sequiter.
  - seiferteric 5y ago
    Not really. I have an EE degree and know all about PE. My point is people commonly call themselves a professional _xyz_ for many other professions. Why should engineering be any different? Just because some organization wants you to? It is fine if you are required to have a cert to say sell things to the general public, or to have plans approved for buildings etc. but no so to try and control who gets to be called a "professional" or to regulate speech in general.
    - mcshicks 5y ago
      It's not just some organization, there is a law in california. https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf If you don't like the law, complain to your local state legislator. For me, it didn't affect my ability to do my job or get employed, so I never cared about it. I supposed they could change the name to "licensed engineer. It doesn't bother me that the person designing roads, buildings or electrical distribution systems has to be licensed. My wife has a friend (Civil Engineer, PE) and it seems like all she does is review/approve stuff done by architects.
      - seiferteric 5y ago
        That's kind of the point of the whole conversation. You can't have a law that restricts what one can call yourself that does not violate the 1st amendment. Certainly you can require one to have a certificate to do certain kinds of work however.
        mcshicks 5y ago
        I'm not a lawyer, but I'm assuming whoever wrote the act at least reviewed it with one. Here is a snippet what is says. 6787. Acts constituting a misdemeanor ... (h) Use the title, or any combination of that title, of “professional engineer,” “licensed engineer,” “registered engineer,” or the branch titles specified in Section 6732, or the authority titles specified in Sections 6736 and 6736.1, or “engineer-in-training,” or use any abbreviation of such title that might lead to the belief that the person is a licensed engineer, is authorized to use the titles specified in Section 6736 or 6736.1, or holds a certificate as an engineer-in-training, without being licensed, authorized, or certified as required by this chapter. So it seems like we do have a law (at least in California) that say something like that.
        seiferteric 5y ago
        You would be surprised to learn then that California has many unconstitutional laws on the books.
mcshicks 5y ago
Yeah I have to say I also disagree. I'm EE, 20+ years of "professional" experience and I would never use the the term "Professional Engineer" to describe myself and I don't ever recall any collegues using that term who were not licensed. Pretty much every Engineer I know understands the difference and would never use the term. It's like saying you are a lawyer when you haven't passed the bar. In fact within the industry you would typically refer to those people as a "PE" (even if they were Civil, Mechanical or Electrtical in training). Of course it is totally fine to use the term professional in a descriptive manner, i.e. "We expect you to act in a professional manner when speaking with the customer". Of course this is only an American thing as far as I know, I have no idea what the practice would be in say Australia.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

apalmer 5y ago

'Professional Engineer' is a specific legal qualification. Further this isn't a case of lay people using a term incorrectly, this is a case of a professional engineer leading a movement to change professional engineering, using the term to help establish his expertise in marketing material.