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It isn't credible to assume that anyone who identifies themselves as an engineer is fraudulently asserting to be a National Council of Examiners for Engineering

It isn't credible to assume that anyone who identifies themselves as an engineer is fraudulently asserting to be a National Council of Examiners for Engineering and Surveying Professional Engineer. It's a huge linguistic power grab to call that confusing. "Here's a common noun for a profession, and now you can't use it without paying us" is a nice business plan for collecting rents indefinitely.

brudgers 5y ago
The issue as described in the article is holding himself out as a “professional engineer” because that implies licensure. Specifically here the issue is that it is a claim to a legally relevant credential...i.e. as qualified to render expert opinion in a legal context.
- tharne 5y ago
  > The issue as described in the article is holding himself out as a “professional engineer” because that implies licensure. I will guarantee you that is not how that vast majority of the population would interpret it. Very few people even know that there is such a thing as a licensed professional engineer. Most reasonable people would take the term "professional engineer" to mean somebody who performs engineering work of some sort in a professional capacity. Actual doing something should take precedence over some license primary used to gatekeep a profession and fill state coffers with licensing fees. The fact that we still have guilds operating in the 21st century is embarrassing.
  - Nicksil 5y ago
    >I will guarantee you that is not how that vast majority of the population would interpret it. I disagree. >Very few people even know that there is such a thing as a licensed professional engineer. >Most reasonable people would take the term "professional engineer" to mean somebody who performs engineering work of some sort in a professional capacity. Where did you source this information?
    - seiferteric 5y ago
      If someone calls themselves a professional musician, what would you think?
      - glitchc 5y ago
        I would think it was a non-sequiter.
        seiferteric 5y ago
        Not really. I have an EE degree and know all about PE. My point is people commonly call themselves a professional _xyz_ for many other professions. Why should engineering be any different? Just because some organization wants you to? It is fine if you are required to have a cert to say sell things to the general public, or to have plans approved for buildings etc. but no so to try and control who gets to be called a "professional" or to regulate speech in general.
        mcshicks 5y ago
        It's not just some organization, there is a law in california. https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf If you don't like the law, complain to your local state legislator. For me, it didn't affect my ability to do my job or get employed, so I never cared about it. I supposed they could change the name to "licensed engineer. It doesn't bother me that the person designing roads, buildings or electrical distribution systems has to be licensed. My wife has a friend (Civil Engineer, PE) and it seems like all she does is review/approve stuff done by architects.
        seiferteric 5y ago
        That's kind of the point of the whole conversation. You can't have a law that restricts what one can call yourself that does not violate the 1st amendment. Certainly you can require one to have a certificate to do certain kinds of work however.
  - apalmer 5y ago
    'Professional Engineer' is a specific legal qualification. Further this isn't a case of lay people using a term incorrectly, this is a case of a professional engineer leading a movement to change professional engineering, using the term to help establish his expertise in marketing material.
- davidw 5y ago
  He's not representing himself as such to a potential client or in the context of a for-pay project, but as part of a talk. He's a person who made his living from engineering, so in that context it makes perfect common sense.
  - brudgers 5y ago
    He represented himself as such to the public. The fact that he represented himself that way speaks to the value he himself placed on the credentials.
glitchc 5y ago
The term "professional engineer" is protected much like the term "medical doctor." Practicing medicine without a license is illegal in all states. It is perfectly credible that someone practicing an occupation is licensed to practice that occupation. The license mandates training and achievement of a minimum level of competence, which serves the public good.

brudgers 5y ago

The issue as described in the article is holding himself out as a “professional engineer” because that implies licensure. Specifically here the issue is that it is a claim to a legally relevant credential...i.e. as qualified to render expert opinion in a legal context.

tharne 5y ago
> The issue as described in the article is holding himself out as a “professional engineer” because that implies licensure. I will guarantee you that is not how that vast majority of the population would interpret it. Very few people even know that there is such a thing as a licensed professional engineer. Most reasonable people would take the term "professional engineer" to mean somebody who performs engineering work of some sort in a professional capacity. Actual doing something should take precedence over some license primary used to gatekeep a profession and fill state coffers with licensing fees. The fact that we still have guilds operating in the 21st century is embarrassing.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  >I will guarantee you that is not how that vast majority of the population would interpret it. I disagree. >Very few people even know that there is such a thing as a licensed professional engineer. >Most reasonable people would take the term "professional engineer" to mean somebody who performs engineering work of some sort in a professional capacity. Where did you source this information?
  - seiferteric 5y ago
    If someone calls themselves a professional musician, what would you think?
    - glitchc 5y ago
      I would think it was a non-sequiter.
      - seiferteric 5y ago
        Not really. I have an EE degree and know all about PE. My point is people commonly call themselves a professional _xyz_ for many other professions. Why should engineering be any different? Just because some organization wants you to? It is fine if you are required to have a cert to say sell things to the general public, or to have plans approved for buildings etc. but no so to try and control who gets to be called a "professional" or to regulate speech in general.
        mcshicks 5y ago
        It's not just some organization, there is a law in california. https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf https://www.bpelsg.ca.gov/laws/pe_act.pdf If you don't like the law, complain to your local state legislator. For me, it didn't affect my ability to do my job or get employed, so I never cared about it. I supposed they could change the name to "licensed engineer. It doesn't bother me that the person designing roads, buildings or electrical distribution systems has to be licensed. My wife has a friend (Civil Engineer, PE) and it seems like all she does is review/approve stuff done by architects.
        seiferteric 5y ago
        That's kind of the point of the whole conversation. You can't have a law that restricts what one can call yourself that does not violate the 1st amendment. Certainly you can require one to have a certificate to do certain kinds of work however.
- apalmer 5y ago
  'Professional Engineer' is a specific legal qualification. Further this isn't a case of lay people using a term incorrectly, this is a case of a professional engineer leading a movement to change professional engineering, using the term to help establish his expertise in marketing material.
davidw 5y ago
He's not representing himself as such to a potential client or in the context of a for-pay project, but as part of a talk. He's a person who made his living from engineering, so in that context it makes perfect common sense.
- brudgers 5y ago
  He represented himself as such to the public. The fact that he represented himself that way speaks to the value he himself placed on the credentials.

glitchc 5y ago

The term "professional engineer" is protected much like the term "medical doctor." Practicing medicine without a license is illegal in all states. It is perfectly credible that someone practicing an occupation is licensed to practice that occupation. The license mandates training and achievement of a minimum level of competence, which serves the public good.