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It's a really hard task to compare engineering to plumbing. I mean the board that licenses Civil Engineers, for example, should be very stringent. We don't liv

It's a really hard task to compare engineering to plumbing. I mean the board that licenses Civil Engineers, for example, should be very stringent. We don't live in buildings that aren't structurally sound or drive on half-assed bridges. Professional Engineers hold themselves to an ethical standard that they're not even legally required to uphold, yet they still do because this organization keeps them in check.

abfan1127 5y ago
I've been a hardware engineer for 15 years. I've designed medical devices, DSP chipsets, and audio chipsets. for me to call my self a "Professional Engineer", I have to pass a test almost wholly focused on Civil Engineering. There is not a single "Professional Engineer" in my office.
- metalliqaz 5y ago
  same here, for aerospace
- geebee 5y ago
  That may not be true anymore - I looked into the engineering exams (FE and PE), and they've been much more specialized. I think this happened fairly recently. https://ncees.org/engineering/fe/ https://ncees.org/engineering/fe/ So I could (but almost certainly won't) take the "Industrial Engineering" exam and focus mainly on IE topics: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Industrial-and-Systems-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Industrial-and-Syste...
  - abfan1127 5y ago
    this is new (from when I looked at it 15 years ago). good for them to expand beyond their original focus.
- _n_b_ 5y ago
  I'm a nuclear engineer and also unlicensed and also know very few who are, but... > for me to call my self a "Professional Engineer", I have to pass a test almost wholly focused on Civil Engineering isn't true. The FE exam has a number of discipline options, including Electrical and Computer[0] and the PE exam is then done be discipline. [0] https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Electrical-and-Computer-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Electrical-and-Compu...
- jacckat8 5y ago
  The PE exam isn't only for Civil Engineers. List of Engineering Disciplines that can take the PE exam: - Agricultural and Biological Engineering - Architectural Engineering - Chemical - Civil - Control Systems - Electrical and Computer - Environmental - Fire Protection - Industrial and Systems - Mechanical - Metallurgical and Materials - Mining and Mineral Processing - Naval Architecture and Marine - Nuclear - Petroleum - Structural
  - abfan1127 5y ago
    This is new (within the last 10-15 years). When I graduated in 2006, there was only 1 test and it was 95% Civil Engineering, mostly intended for signing off on electrical and structural plans.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
wearywanderer 5y ago
> It's a really hard task to compare engineering to plumbing. Hydraulic engineers would probably be scratching their heads at this. The intersection between engineering and plumbing is well charted territory.
mrandish 5y ago
One issue I see is that many (most?) such certifying organizations exclude themselves from having liability when they fail. In some use cases, I think exploring alternatives may yield a better blend of trade-offs. One example would be insurance-based approaches which incentivize more accurately pricing risk.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  > certifying organizations exclude themselves from having liability when they fail That's convenient. The organizations assert that they can tell certified persons what's allowed and not, but if the certified person follows all the rules and something still goes sideways, the license ends up being worthless, because they can't say, "I did it this way because that's what the standards I'm required to adhere to say"? As a programmer (who gets titled "software engineer" whether I liked it or not) this is terrible. What incentive would I have for getting a license if it doesn't protect me from liability?
- jacckat8 5y ago
  When you get your Professional Engineering license. You also get the PE stamp which allows you to approve public projects. When you give your stamp of approval on a project then you're legally liable for it. You can be sued for incompetence. Then, you have to go to court and defend yourself. Or, more commonly, your company will send a lawyer but you still may be called to testify.
Spooky23 5y ago
Plumbing is an applied discipline where you do stuff within a protocol. Most public works and building is template driven with standardized components. Highway bridges pretty much look the same if they were built at the same time. There’s probably 10-15 guys in the average state who periodically update the standards. 80% of the rest of the work is drudgery done by overworked, underpaid assistants and non-professional engineers, signed off on by a PE later. What PEs do accomplish is making it outrageously expensive to perform basic public works that were accomplished successfully by a DPW guy with a paint roller 40 years ago. Painting a crosswalk and installing a traffic light costs nearly $1M, because you need to hire an engineering firm to duplicate a template, and sign off on placement of lines, etc.
WkndTriathlete 5y ago
Yeah? Here in Minnesota we ended up driving around on half-assed bridges about a decade ago with predictable results. (Remember the I-35W bridge collapse?) Just based on the number of idiotic major bridge designs we have had over the Mississippi river, I'm inclined to go with Marohn on this one. Kick all of the bozos more interested in politics than actual real engineering out.
- Nicksil 5y ago
  Now imagine the number of fatalities and destruction there would be if just anyone was allow to build a bridge.
  - throwaway0a5e 5y ago
    Probably about the same but with less money allocated toward engineers and more allocated toward testing and inspection.
    - jacckat8 5y ago
      Who do you think does the testing and inspection of bridges? Civil Engineers.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
idiotsecant 5y ago
It's only hard if you are viewing the world through classist glasses. Plumbing is a skill with real world consequences when that skill is executed poorly, just like engineering.

abfan1127 5y ago

I've been a hardware engineer for 15 years. I've designed medical devices, DSP chipsets, and audio chipsets. for me to call my self a "Professional Engineer", I have to pass a test almost wholly focused on Civil Engineering. There is not a single "Professional Engineer" in my office.

metalliqaz 5y ago
same here, for aerospace
geebee 5y ago
That may not be true anymore - I looked into the engineering exams (FE and PE), and they've been much more specialized. I think this happened fairly recently. https://ncees.org/engineering/fe/ https://ncees.org/engineering/fe/ So I could (but almost certainly won't) take the "Industrial Engineering" exam and focus mainly on IE topics: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Industrial-and-Systems-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Industrial-and-Syste...
- abfan1127 5y ago
  this is new (from when I looked at it 15 years ago). good for them to expand beyond their original focus.
_n_b_ 5y ago
I'm a nuclear engineer and also unlicensed and also know very few who are, but... > for me to call my self a "Professional Engineer", I have to pass a test almost wholly focused on Civil Engineering isn't true. The FE exam has a number of discipline options, including Electrical and Computer[0] and the PE exam is then done be discipline. [0] https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Electrical-and-Computer-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Electrical-and-Compu...
jacckat8 5y ago
The PE exam isn't only for Civil Engineers. List of Engineering Disciplines that can take the PE exam: - Agricultural and Biological Engineering - Architectural Engineering - Chemical - Civil - Control Systems - Electrical and Computer - Environmental - Fire Protection - Industrial and Systems - Mechanical - Metallurgical and Materials - Mining and Mineral Processing - Naval Architecture and Marine - Nuclear - Petroleum - Structural
- abfan1127 5y ago
  This is new (within the last 10-15 years). When I graduated in 2006, there was only 1 test and it was 95% Civil Engineering, mostly intended for signing off on electrical and structural plans.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

wearywanderer 5y ago

> It's a really hard task to compare engineering to plumbing. Hydraulic engineers would probably be scratching their heads at this. The intersection between engineering and plumbing is well charted territory.

mrandish 5y ago

One issue I see is that many (most?) such certifying organizations exclude themselves from having liability when they fail. In some use cases, I think exploring alternatives may yield a better blend of trade-offs. One example would be insurance-based approaches which incentivize more accurately pricing risk.

cratermoon 5y ago
> certifying organizations exclude themselves from having liability when they fail That's convenient. The organizations assert that they can tell certified persons what's allowed and not, but if the certified person follows all the rules and something still goes sideways, the license ends up being worthless, because they can't say, "I did it this way because that's what the standards I'm required to adhere to say"? As a programmer (who gets titled "software engineer" whether I liked it or not) this is terrible. What incentive would I have for getting a license if it doesn't protect me from liability?
jacckat8 5y ago
When you get your Professional Engineering license. You also get the PE stamp which allows you to approve public projects. When you give your stamp of approval on a project then you're legally liable for it. You can be sued for incompetence. Then, you have to go to court and defend yourself. Or, more commonly, your company will send a lawyer but you still may be called to testify.

Spooky23 5y ago

Plumbing is an applied discipline where you do stuff within a protocol. Most public works and building is template driven with standardized components. Highway bridges pretty much look the same if they were built at the same time. There’s probably 10-15 guys in the average state who periodically update the standards. 80% of the rest of the work is drudgery done by overworked, underpaid assistants and non-professional engineers, signed off on by a PE later. What PEs do accomplish is making it outrageously expensive to perform basic public works that were accomplished successfully by a DPW guy with a paint roller 40 years ago. Painting a crosswalk and installing a traffic light costs nearly $1M, because you need to hire an engineering firm to duplicate a template, and sign off on placement of lines, etc.

WkndTriathlete 5y ago

Yeah? Here in Minnesota we ended up driving around on half-assed bridges about a decade ago with predictable results. (Remember the I-35W bridge collapse?) Just based on the number of idiotic major bridge designs we have had over the Mississippi river, I'm inclined to go with Marohn on this one. Kick all of the bozos more interested in politics than actual real engineering out.

Nicksil 5y ago
Now imagine the number of fatalities and destruction there would be if just anyone was allow to build a bridge.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  Probably about the same but with less money allocated toward engineers and more allocated toward testing and inspection.
  - jacckat8 5y ago
    Who do you think does the testing and inspection of bridges? Civil Engineers.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

idiotsecant 5y ago

It's only hard if you are viewing the world through classist glasses. Plumbing is a skill with real world consequences when that skill is executed poorly, just like engineering.