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You're an engineer if you do engineering, regardless of your credentials. You aren't an "<insert-credential-here> Engineer", but the mere noun doesn't assert th

You're an engineer if you do engineering, regardless of your credentials. You aren't an "<insert-credential-here> Engineer", but the mere noun doesn't assert that. The Minnesota Board of Engineering Licensure is a bully that should be leashed by the first amendment.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
This is how every state backed/endorsed (or state operated, but those are less common) professional licensure board or trade association that gate-keeps licensing works. They all aggressively defend and try to expand their turf, even when it's stupid and harmful to society. The only reason we don't hear about the plumbing cartel going after the home repair business that isn't licensed for plumbing in every state it operates in but wrote "plumbing" on its vans in all states is because HN doesn't really concern itself with those sort of matters.
- thereisnospork 5y ago
  >This is how every state backed/endorsed (or state operated, but those are less common) professional licensure board or trade association that gate-keeps licensing works. I wouldn't limit that statement to state-backed: it is how most (or at least many) private organizations and unions work too, from teamsters to fifa to the NRA. State backed organizations just have the extra advantage of being explicitly state backed.
- jacckat8 5y ago
  It's a really hard task to compare engineering to plumbing. I mean the board that licenses Civil Engineers, for example, should be very stringent. We don't live in buildings that aren't structurally sound or drive on half-assed bridges. Professional Engineers hold themselves to an ethical standard that they're not even legally required to uphold, yet they still do because this organization keeps them in check.
  - abfan1127 5y ago
    I've been a hardware engineer for 15 years. I've designed medical devices, DSP chipsets, and audio chipsets. for me to call my self a "Professional Engineer", I have to pass a test almost wholly focused on Civil Engineering. There is not a single "Professional Engineer" in my office.
    - metalliqaz 5y ago
      same here, for aerospace
    - geebee 5y ago
      That may not be true anymore - I looked into the engineering exams (FE and PE), and they've been much more specialized. I think this happened fairly recently. https://ncees.org/engineering/fe/ https://ncees.org/engineering/fe/ So I could (but almost certainly won't) take the "Industrial Engineering" exam and focus mainly on IE topics: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Industrial-and-Systems-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Industrial-and-Syste...
      - abfan1127 5y ago
        this is new (from when I looked at it 15 years ago). good for them to expand beyond their original focus.
    - _n_b_ 5y ago
      I'm a nuclear engineer and also unlicensed and also know very few who are, but... > for me to call my self a "Professional Engineer", I have to pass a test almost wholly focused on Civil Engineering isn't true. The FE exam has a number of discipline options, including Electrical and Computer[0] and the PE exam is then done be discipline. [0] https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Electrical-and-Computer-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Electrical-and-Compu...
    - jacckat8 5y ago
      The PE exam isn't only for Civil Engineers. List of Engineering Disciplines that can take the PE exam: - Agricultural and Biological Engineering - Architectural Engineering - Chemical - Civil - Control Systems - Electrical and Computer - Environmental - Fire Protection - Industrial and Systems - Mechanical - Metallurgical and Materials - Mining and Mineral Processing - Naval Architecture and Marine - Nuclear - Petroleum - Structural
bigbillheck 5y ago
OK now do doctors.
- hirundo 5y ago
  A doctorate is specifically an academic credential. A closer analogy would be "healer". Or if he claimed to be a doctor of engineering.
  - AlexandrB 5y ago
    I think he's referring to medical doctors, who are licensed in a way similar to engineers and lawyers, not PhDs.
- ampdepolymerase 5y ago
  And also the SEC. It is absolutely terrible that private sector cartels like FINRA are allowed to exist.
  - austincheney 5y ago
    That is a product of tax money. FINRA is allowed to exist because the SEC is limited in total security examiners by budget limitations.
- treeman79 5y ago
  Please do. As someone that spent hundreds of thousands to get answers, and majority of my answers came from other people going through same nonsense. For anything complicated you have to become your own doctor. Medical community is broken on all but straightforward cases.
- paxys 5y ago
  Any university can hand out an honorary doctorate. You can also call yourself Dr. Whatever with zero credentials without getting into legal trouble. You will not have the license to practice medicine in the state, but that's not really what the word "doctor" means anyways.
jacckat8 5y ago
You're only a professional engineer if you pass the PE exam. You can't legally present yourself as a professional engineer without that license.
- jMyles 5y ago
  This seems like an odd point to make, since Marohn did pass all the necessary exams and had been previously licensed. Are you saying that, in addition to not practicing civil engineering professionally, that he has to scrub the entire internet of his title the moment his license expires?
  - Afton 5y ago
    That seems like a strawman. The complaint is that he described himself as a professional engineer while his license had expired. As in, during that period, he wasn't a licensed engineer, and therefore shouldn't have called himself one.
    - jMyles 5y ago
      > Now, for the second time, a professional engineer has filed a complaint with the state licensing board alleging that the writing, speaking, and advocacy for reform of Charles Marohn—the founder and president of Strong Towns—constitutes a violation of Minnesota law. The complaint is that, in his advocacy, he described himself as a professional engineer, which he obviously is. The idea that one needs to stay in the good graces of the state in order to reference one's experience in their field as part of their political advocacy cannot possibly withstand genuine first amendment scrutiny, can it?
      - Nicksil 5y ago
        > The idea that one needs to stay in the good graces of the state in order to reference one's experience in their field as part of their political advocacy cannot possibly withstand genuine first amendment scrutiny, can it? Being licensed isn't to be within the good graces of the state, it's to prove the licensee has the requite knowledge and experience to design and construct things which, when fail, people die. This is something we want in society.
TylerE 5y ago
That depends. In Canada, for instance, you absolutely have to be certified to call yourself an engineer.
- paxys 5y ago
  That's a myth. You can absolutely work an engineering job and call yourself an engineer in Canada without any certification. Look up all the "software engineer", "systems engineer", "marine engineer", "audio engineer", "application engineer" etc. job listings in any Canadian city. None of them are looking exclusively for certified/licensed engineers, and the people working for them aren't doing so illegally. Canadian courts have ruled many times over that professional licensing organizations do not have exclusive rights to the word "engineer".
- grecy 5y ago
  Which is interesting, because I have a Bachelor of Software Engineering from Australia, and am certified by the Australian Institute of Engineers... but there were a TON of Engineers at the big Canadian Telco I worked for who were hell-bent on me NOT calling myself an Engineer.
- xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
  And when I last looked at doing certification, the core requirements had literally nothing to do with what I practiced (fluid dynamics for a software engineer? Take a hike) It's all a racket. I'm an unlicensed, non-PE software engineer. Am I allowed to call myself that?
  - Nicksil 5y ago
    >It's all a racket. It's not. >I'm an unlicensed, non-PE software engineer. Am I allowed to call myself that? In many areas, yeah, you can refer to yourself as a software engineer, but the title doesn't mean anything because anyone can refer to themselves as a software engineer; there is nothing defining what that means.
    - xyzzy_plugh 5y ago

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

This is how every state backed/endorsed (or state operated, but those are less common) professional licensure board or trade association that gate-keeps licensing works. They all aggressively defend and try to expand their turf, even when it's stupid and harmful to society. The only reason we don't hear about the plumbing cartel going after the home repair business that isn't licensed for plumbing in every state it operates in but wrote "plumbing" on its vans in all states is because HN doesn't really concern itself with those sort of matters.

thereisnospork 5y ago
>This is how every state backed/endorsed (or state operated, but those are less common) professional licensure board or trade association that gate-keeps licensing works. I wouldn't limit that statement to state-backed: it is how most (or at least many) private organizations and unions work too, from teamsters to fifa to the NRA. State backed organizations just have the extra advantage of being explicitly state backed.
jacckat8 5y ago
It's a really hard task to compare engineering to plumbing. I mean the board that licenses Civil Engineers, for example, should be very stringent. We don't live in buildings that aren't structurally sound or drive on half-assed bridges. Professional Engineers hold themselves to an ethical standard that they're not even legally required to uphold, yet they still do because this organization keeps them in check.
- abfan1127 5y ago
  I've been a hardware engineer for 15 years. I've designed medical devices, DSP chipsets, and audio chipsets. for me to call my self a "Professional Engineer", I have to pass a test almost wholly focused on Civil Engineering. There is not a single "Professional Engineer" in my office.
  - metalliqaz 5y ago
    same here, for aerospace
  - geebee 5y ago
    That may not be true anymore - I looked into the engineering exams (FE and PE), and they've been much more specialized. I think this happened fairly recently. https://ncees.org/engineering/fe/ https://ncees.org/engineering/fe/ So I could (but almost certainly won't) take the "Industrial Engineering" exam and focus mainly on IE topics: https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Industrial-and-Systems-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Industrial-and-Syste...
    - abfan1127 5y ago
      this is new (from when I looked at it 15 years ago). good for them to expand beyond their original focus.
  - _n_b_ 5y ago
    I'm a nuclear engineer and also unlicensed and also know very few who are, but... > for me to call my self a "Professional Engineer", I have to pass a test almost wholly focused on Civil Engineering isn't true. The FE exam has a number of discipline options, including Electrical and Computer[0] and the PE exam is then done be discipline. [0] https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Electrical-and-Computer-CBT-specs.pdf https://ncees.org/wp-content/uploads/FE-Electrical-and-Compu...
  - jacckat8 5y ago
    The PE exam isn't only for Civil Engineers. List of Engineering Disciplines that can take the PE exam: - Agricultural and Biological Engineering - Architectural Engineering - Chemical - Civil - Control Systems - Electrical and Computer - Environmental - Fire Protection - Industrial and Systems - Mechanical - Metallurgical and Materials - Mining and Mineral Processing - Naval Architecture and Marine - Nuclear - Petroleum - Structural

bigbillheck 5y ago

OK now do doctors.

hirundo 5y ago
A doctorate is specifically an academic credential. A closer analogy would be "healer". Or if he claimed to be a doctor of engineering.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  I think he's referring to medical doctors, who are licensed in a way similar to engineers and lawyers, not PhDs.
ampdepolymerase 5y ago
And also the SEC. It is absolutely terrible that private sector cartels like FINRA are allowed to exist.
- austincheney 5y ago
  That is a product of tax money. FINRA is allowed to exist because the SEC is limited in total security examiners by budget limitations.
treeman79 5y ago
Please do. As someone that spent hundreds of thousands to get answers, and majority of my answers came from other people going through same nonsense. For anything complicated you have to become your own doctor. Medical community is broken on all but straightforward cases.
paxys 5y ago
Any university can hand out an honorary doctorate. You can also call yourself Dr. Whatever with zero credentials without getting into legal trouble. You will not have the license to practice medicine in the state, but that's not really what the word "doctor" means anyways.

jacckat8 5y ago

You're only a professional engineer if you pass the PE exam. You can't legally present yourself as a professional engineer without that license.

jMyles 5y ago
This seems like an odd point to make, since Marohn did pass all the necessary exams and had been previously licensed. Are you saying that, in addition to not practicing civil engineering professionally, that he has to scrub the entire internet of his title the moment his license expires?
- Afton 5y ago
  That seems like a strawman. The complaint is that he described himself as a professional engineer while his license had expired. As in, during that period, he wasn't a licensed engineer, and therefore shouldn't have called himself one.
  - jMyles 5y ago
    > Now, for the second time, a professional engineer has filed a complaint with the state licensing board alleging that the writing, speaking, and advocacy for reform of Charles Marohn—the founder and president of Strong Towns—constitutes a violation of Minnesota law. The complaint is that, in his advocacy, he described himself as a professional engineer, which he obviously is. The idea that one needs to stay in the good graces of the state in order to reference one's experience in their field as part of their political advocacy cannot possibly withstand genuine first amendment scrutiny, can it?
    - Nicksil 5y ago
      > The idea that one needs to stay in the good graces of the state in order to reference one's experience in their field as part of their political advocacy cannot possibly withstand genuine first amendment scrutiny, can it? Being licensed isn't to be within the good graces of the state, it's to prove the licensee has the requite knowledge and experience to design and construct things which, when fail, people die. This is something we want in society.

TylerE 5y ago

That depends. In Canada, for instance, you absolutely have to be certified to call yourself an engineer.

paxys 5y ago
That's a myth. You can absolutely work an engineering job and call yourself an engineer in Canada without any certification. Look up all the "software engineer", "systems engineer", "marine engineer", "audio engineer", "application engineer" etc. job listings in any Canadian city. None of them are looking exclusively for certified/licensed engineers, and the people working for them aren't doing so illegally. Canadian courts have ruled many times over that professional licensing organizations do not have exclusive rights to the word "engineer".
grecy 5y ago
Which is interesting, because I have a Bachelor of Software Engineering from Australia, and am certified by the Australian Institute of Engineers... but there were a TON of Engineers at the big Canadian Telco I worked for who were hell-bent on me NOT calling myself an Engineer.
xyzzy_plugh 5y ago
And when I last looked at doing certification, the core requirements had literally nothing to do with what I practiced (fluid dynamics for a software engineer? Take a hike) It's all a racket. I'm an unlicensed, non-PE software engineer. Am I allowed to call myself that?
- Nicksil 5y ago
  >It's all a racket. It's not. >I'm an unlicensed, non-PE software engineer. Am I allowed to call myself that? In many areas, yeah, you can refer to yourself as a software engineer, but the title doesn't mean anything because anyone can refer to themselves as a software engineer; there is nothing defining what that means.
  - xyzzy_plugh 5y ago