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You nailed it. I find it funny how people believe a simple molecule made from a dozen atoms is somehow the elixir of immortality, as if aging is a simple biolog

You nailed it. I find it funny how people believe a simple molecule made from a dozen atoms is somehow the elixir of immortality, as if aging is a simple biological process that we can flip off with a single switch. If we want to take aging seriously, we need to first appreciate the problem. It reminds me how people used to think there was "the cure" for cancer.

jerf 5y ago
Personally, I have a hard time guessing which of "extend the life of the human organism to, let's say, 500 years" or "read out the living brain state of a human being and simulate it in a computer" is going to be easier. With full knowledge of how hard the second may be, if indeed it is possible at all. I wouldn't be surprised there's a few "One Weird Trick to Extend Your Life by Five Years"s yet to be found, but to solve aging I expect to be much harder. It wouldn't surprise me much that the simplest "solution" to aging could end up being the brain simulation thing anyhow, because fixing up the biological organism across hundreds of years is simply that hard. If there are a few of those weird tricks I definitely expect a period of excessive optimism where people conclude we're just another couple of such tricks away from the solution, when instead they are simply the first steps on a very long path.
- benlivengood 5y ago
  > Personally, I have a hard time guessing which of "extend the life of the human organism to, let's say, 500 years" or "read out the living brain state of a human being and simulate it in a computer" is going to be easier. The latter is probably closer. We can already induce extended periods of apoxyia in animals by replacing blood with cold saline without brain damage so a similar procedure should be possible to keep healthy brain tissue intact while scanning it. The necessary fidelity of the simulation is what we don't know yet. Keeping a human being alive for 500 years means knowing how to do roughly the same thing to bodies in order to accomplish the major periodic surgeries necessary to replace failing/injured parts including healing the brain itself, so probably represents a harder technical threshold.
  - scarby2 5y ago
    However brain simulation isn't on a par with life extension. with brain simulation you still die. You're just replaced by something extremely similar to you with all your memories. There's a distinct break in continuity. At that point i can just create clones of my consciousness, the original consciousness does not want to stop existing.
    - messe 5y ago
      It depends on what you consider to be you, and whether continuity of consciousness is important to you personally.
    - benlivengood 5y ago
      > You're just replaced by something extremely similar to you with all your memories. That happens every night I go to sleep and a fair portion of my atoms get swapped out by normal metabolic processes. My neural network changes as I'm unconscious or dream. I don't even remember all my dreams, but wake up with new thoughts/ideas sometimes. We're always some delta from ourselves the previous day. I'm very different from the me of 10 years ago. The jump to a brain simulation may be a large change, but I could also tweak the things that didn't feel quite right or match with what I used to be like.
      - shard 5y ago
        The difference is that you cannot meet face to face with the delta you from before you went to sleep, thus all rights and privileges reside within one continuous body through time. It depends if you are comfortable with having an extremely similar copy or multiple extremely similar copies inherit all your rights and privileges.
        benlivengood 5y ago
        Legal rights would probably be an AND situation rather than an OR, or maybe some sort of majority-rule situation.
- the__alchemist 5y ago
  If you're interested in Sci-Fi on the topic, Charles Stross's Accelerondo, and Neal Stepheonson's Fall; or, Dodge in Hell are excellent.
RosanaAnaDana 5y ago
:entropy has entered the chat:
munchbunny 5y ago
I find it funny how people believe a simple molecule made from a dozen atoms is somehow the elixir of immortality We've absolutely been here before with vitamins, both the fact that they're simple molecules and part where we over-promise what they can do. (Example: vitamin C mega-dosing)
ekianjo 5y ago
> I find it funny how people believe a simple molecule made from a dozen atoms is somehow the elixir of immortality That's a weird statement to make, while in the largest part of the 20th century, most medicinal advances were made using small molecules. Aspirin is a very potent drug that had dozens of actual applications at least, yet remains a very simple molecule.

jerf 5y ago

Personally, I have a hard time guessing which of "extend the life of the human organism to, let's say, 500 years" or "read out the living brain state of a human being and simulate it in a computer" is going to be easier. With full knowledge of how hard the second may be, if indeed it is possible at all. I wouldn't be surprised there's a few "One Weird Trick to Extend Your Life by Five Years"s yet to be found, but to solve aging I expect to be much harder. It wouldn't surprise me much that the simplest "solution" to aging could end up being the brain simulation thing anyhow, because fixing up the biological organism across hundreds of years is simply that hard. If there are a few of those weird tricks I definitely expect a period of excessive optimism where people conclude we're just another couple of such tricks away from the solution, when instead they are simply the first steps on a very long path.

benlivengood 5y ago
> Personally, I have a hard time guessing which of "extend the life of the human organism to, let's say, 500 years" or "read out the living brain state of a human being and simulate it in a computer" is going to be easier. The latter is probably closer. We can already induce extended periods of apoxyia in animals by replacing blood with cold saline without brain damage so a similar procedure should be possible to keep healthy brain tissue intact while scanning it. The necessary fidelity of the simulation is what we don't know yet. Keeping a human being alive for 500 years means knowing how to do roughly the same thing to bodies in order to accomplish the major periodic surgeries necessary to replace failing/injured parts including healing the brain itself, so probably represents a harder technical threshold.
- scarby2 5y ago
  However brain simulation isn't on a par with life extension. with brain simulation you still die. You're just replaced by something extremely similar to you with all your memories. There's a distinct break in continuity. At that point i can just create clones of my consciousness, the original consciousness does not want to stop existing.
  - messe 5y ago
    It depends on what you consider to be you, and whether continuity of consciousness is important to you personally.
  - benlivengood 5y ago
    > You're just replaced by something extremely similar to you with all your memories. That happens every night I go to sleep and a fair portion of my atoms get swapped out by normal metabolic processes. My neural network changes as I'm unconscious or dream. I don't even remember all my dreams, but wake up with new thoughts/ideas sometimes. We're always some delta from ourselves the previous day. I'm very different from the me of 10 years ago. The jump to a brain simulation may be a large change, but I could also tweak the things that didn't feel quite right or match with what I used to be like.
    - shard 5y ago
      The difference is that you cannot meet face to face with the delta you from before you went to sleep, thus all rights and privileges reside within one continuous body through time. It depends if you are comfortable with having an extremely similar copy or multiple extremely similar copies inherit all your rights and privileges.
      - benlivengood 5y ago
        Legal rights would probably be an AND situation rather than an OR, or maybe some sort of majority-rule situation.
the__alchemist 5y ago
If you're interested in Sci-Fi on the topic, Charles Stross's Accelerondo, and Neal Stepheonson's Fall; or, Dodge in Hell are excellent.

RosanaAnaDana 5y ago

:entropy has entered the chat:

munchbunny 5y ago

I find it funny how people believe a simple molecule made from a dozen atoms is somehow the elixir of immortality We've absolutely been here before with vitamins, both the fact that they're simple molecules and part where we over-promise what they can do. (Example: vitamin C mega-dosing)

ekianjo 5y ago

> I find it funny how people believe a simple molecule made from a dozen atoms is somehow the elixir of immortality That's a weird statement to make, while in the largest part of the 20th century, most medicinal advances were made using small molecules. Aspirin is a very potent drug that had dozens of actual applications at least, yet remains a very simple molecule.