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I don't think that people are united about breaking up Amazon and frankly I don't really see the damage to consumer necessary to break it up; products come fast

I don't think that people are united about breaking up Amazon and frankly I don't really see the damage to consumer necessary to break it up; products come faster, cheaper. Could you articulate why Amazon should be broken up? Most of the arguments I've seen boil down to "It's so big" and not really "It's effectively dominated x market and there is no competition there" or even "they are harming competition by pre-installing free software that I can't uninstall"

enragedcacti 5y ago
I would split it into three things: 1. They have the size and market control to crush and/or acquire all competitors e.g. diapers.com https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/amazon-emails-show-effort-to-weaken-diapers-com-before-buying-it https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/amazon-em... 2. They purport to operate a neutral marketplace where they aren't responsible for the end product while also controlling what products you see and what company you will buy from and choose the ones that give them the best margin. The huge problem of counterfeit and faulty products on Amazon directly harms the consumer and because of (1) there isn't a general market remedy. 3. They leverage their position as market maker to figure out what products to manufacture and undercut innovative companies with their massive scale. In the short term this is a net benefit to consumers who get a cheaper product but it creates a mess of bad incentives down the line.
- ameister14 5y ago
  >They have the size and market control to crush and/or acquire all competitors I don't think that is true for all competitors, but it definitely is for many competitors. It's a good point if they are using that power, which I think they are, especially in particular industries. Same applies to Facebook, Apple, and many other companies as well. >2. They purport to operate a neutral marketplace where they aren't responsible for the end product while also controlling what products you see and what company you will buy from and choose the ones that give them the best margin. The huge problem of counterfeit and faulty products on Amazon directly harms the consumer and because of (1) there isn't a general market remedy. That's two different things, isn't it? Counterfeit products are a problem and a non-neutral market is a different problem. I think the non-neutral market bit is already covered by existing regulations, isn't it? Shouldn't we simply apply the rules we have? >3. They leverage their position as market maker to figure out what products to manufacture and undercut innovative companies with their massive scale. In the short term this is a net benefit to consumers who get a cheaper product but it creates a mess of bad incentives down the line. This one I've seen before but not as an argument to break them up - it's an interesting argument to me because I think a lot of companies engage in these practices. Grocery stores classically would release basic cheerios for example and undercut the price of the brand
samdixon 5y ago
I don't know how large of a concern this is, but Amazons wide growth allows using revenue from their higher profit sectors (such as aws) to force out competitors in other lower margin sectors they are involved with such as grocery stores. This also may very well be a strategy other large conglomerates utilize. Video on subject: https://youtu.be/EYPs-ya_GDA?t=128 https://youtu.be/EYPs-ya_GDA?t=128
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Grocery stores use high margin products to sell staples such as bread and meat at cost or loss and force out smaller players like bakers and butchers.
mschuster91 5y ago
> "It's effectively dominated x market and there is no competition there" Amazon often enough dominates local labor markets - they strategically set up their fulfillment centers in places that have high unemployment, so that employees have no practical (!) alternative than to accept the exploitative working conditions that Amazon offers. Regarding marketplaces: in accessible online shopping, Amazon and eBay are a de-facto duopoly for the vendors. Get booted off of either and watch your business go dry in a matter of days. > "they are harming competition by pre-installing free software that I can't uninstall" That one was literally used as a justification for the IE de-bundling many years ago.
- ameister14 5y ago
  >That one was literally used as a justification for the IE de-bundling many years ago. Yeah, that's what I was referencing by using it - that said my phone comes bundled with trash that I can't uninstall >Regarding marketplaces: in accessible online shopping, Amazon and eBay are a de-facto duopoly for the vendors. Get booted off of either and watch your business go dry in a matter of days. Their marketplace does seem to be pretty powerful, but I've seen a lot of vendors do well with a standalone site + Instagram/Facebook ads and marketplace so I'm not sure it's really a duopoly for all vendors. If you are only in one market and that market bans you your business will go dry immediately either way. >Amazon often enough dominates local labor markets - they strategically set up their fulfillment centers in places that have high unemployment, so that employees have no practical (!) alternative than to accept the exploitative working conditions that Amazon offers. This one I don't think works - it can apply to any employer that moves into a high unemployment area and I think that's something we want to encourage companies to do
asdffdsa 5y ago
At the very least their marketplace and their store should be separate entities.
x4e 5y ago
Amazon's continuous expansion is resulting in powerful monopsonies - if you want to for example create your own book, soon there is going to be no option but to sell it to Amazon so it will be in kindles and on audible. Amazon will have complete power over what cut of the profits to give you. Why bother making that new product you thought of when the only way to sell it is by listing it on Amazon and eventually having Amazon copy it and sell under "Amazons Choice". So while Amazon is great for consumers, it is terrible for producers. And you have to remember - if you have a job you are a producer too. For now you are getting cheaper and more convenient service, but soon you will be struggling to find a job if this continues.

enragedcacti 5y ago

I would split it into three things: 1. They have the size and market control to crush and/or acquire all competitors e.g. diapers.com https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/amazon-emails-show-effort-to-weaken-diapers-com-before-buying-it https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-07-29/amazon-em... 2. They purport to operate a neutral marketplace where they aren't responsible for the end product while also controlling what products you see and what company you will buy from and choose the ones that give them the best margin. The huge problem of counterfeit and faulty products on Amazon directly harms the consumer and because of (1) there isn't a general market remedy. 3. They leverage their position as market maker to figure out what products to manufacture and undercut innovative companies with their massive scale. In the short term this is a net benefit to consumers who get a cheaper product but it creates a mess of bad incentives down the line.

ameister14 5y ago
>They have the size and market control to crush and/or acquire all competitors I don't think that is true for all competitors, but it definitely is for many competitors. It's a good point if they are using that power, which I think they are, especially in particular industries. Same applies to Facebook, Apple, and many other companies as well. >2. They purport to operate a neutral marketplace where they aren't responsible for the end product while also controlling what products you see and what company you will buy from and choose the ones that give them the best margin. The huge problem of counterfeit and faulty products on Amazon directly harms the consumer and because of (1) there isn't a general market remedy. That's two different things, isn't it? Counterfeit products are a problem and a non-neutral market is a different problem. I think the non-neutral market bit is already covered by existing regulations, isn't it? Shouldn't we simply apply the rules we have? >3. They leverage their position as market maker to figure out what products to manufacture and undercut innovative companies with their massive scale. In the short term this is a net benefit to consumers who get a cheaper product but it creates a mess of bad incentives down the line. This one I've seen before but not as an argument to break them up - it's an interesting argument to me because I think a lot of companies engage in these practices. Grocery stores classically would release basic cheerios for example and undercut the price of the brand

samdixon 5y ago

I don't know how large of a concern this is, but Amazons wide growth allows using revenue from their higher profit sectors (such as aws) to force out competitors in other lower margin sectors they are involved with such as grocery stores. This also may very well be a strategy other large conglomerates utilize. Video on subject: https://youtu.be/EYPs-ya_GDA?t=128 https://youtu.be/EYPs-ya_GDA?t=128

lotsofpulp 5y ago
Grocery stores use high margin products to sell staples such as bread and meat at cost or loss and force out smaller players like bakers and butchers.

mschuster91 5y ago

> "It's effectively dominated x market and there is no competition there" Amazon often enough dominates local labor markets - they strategically set up their fulfillment centers in places that have high unemployment, so that employees have no practical (!) alternative than to accept the exploitative working conditions that Amazon offers. Regarding marketplaces: in accessible online shopping, Amazon and eBay are a de-facto duopoly for the vendors. Get booted off of either and watch your business go dry in a matter of days. > "they are harming competition by pre-installing free software that I can't uninstall" That one was literally used as a justification for the IE de-bundling many years ago.

ameister14 5y ago
>That one was literally used as a justification for the IE de-bundling many years ago. Yeah, that's what I was referencing by using it - that said my phone comes bundled with trash that I can't uninstall >Regarding marketplaces: in accessible online shopping, Amazon and eBay are a de-facto duopoly for the vendors. Get booted off of either and watch your business go dry in a matter of days. Their marketplace does seem to be pretty powerful, but I've seen a lot of vendors do well with a standalone site + Instagram/Facebook ads and marketplace so I'm not sure it's really a duopoly for all vendors. If you are only in one market and that market bans you your business will go dry immediately either way. >Amazon often enough dominates local labor markets - they strategically set up their fulfillment centers in places that have high unemployment, so that employees have no practical (!) alternative than to accept the exploitative working conditions that Amazon offers. This one I don't think works - it can apply to any employer that moves into a high unemployment area and I think that's something we want to encourage companies to do

asdffdsa 5y ago

At the very least their marketplace and their store should be separate entities.

x4e 5y ago

Amazon's continuous expansion is resulting in powerful monopsonies - if you want to for example create your own book, soon there is going to be no option but to sell it to Amazon so it will be in kindles and on audible. Amazon will have complete power over what cut of the profits to give you. Why bother making that new product you thought of when the only way to sell it is by listing it on Amazon and eventually having Amazon copy it and sell under "Amazons Choice". So while Amazon is great for consumers, it is terrible for producers. And you have to remember - if you have a job you are a producer too. For now you are getting cheaper and more convenient service, but soon you will be struggling to find a job if this continues.