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There's also an ease of use thing. "Slack" and "Discord" can both be thought of as monolithic entities. For less technical communities, that helps with the onbo

There's also an ease of use thing. "Slack" and "Discord" can both be thought of as monolithic entities. For less technical communities, that helps with the onboarding. You don't have to worry yourself about the details of networks and servers and clients and nickservs and whatnot. Teaching someone to use irc is a rather thornier issue, and even some tech people might bounce off of it unless they have a compelling reason to burn time on RTFM. Depending on the values of the community, those practical concerns may or may not outweigh other considerations. There's a lot to be said for open protocols, but there's also a lot to be said for UX.

swiley 5y ago
>Teaching someone IRC You mean handing them xchat/colloquy/kiwichat and telling them to come up with a name and click this text box to send a message? Sure irssi is hard to use but unlike Slack and Discord you're not stuck with a single terrible client.
- TheAdamAndChe 5y ago
  And tell them how to register the nickname, and tell them how to log in, and tell them how to list rooms and join them. Then teach them about op codes. (Lack of) Ease of use is a big reason for IRC's loss in popularity.
  - swiley 5y ago
    You don't need to register a nickname (I didn't when I used freenode) In the clients I mentioned listing and joining rooms works the same way it does on discord and slack: you open the list and click the ones you want to join.
  - SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
    Discord/Slack already has a bunch of those things- how to mute channels is a big one, as well as how to change ones nickname, how to get a role, and managing permissions for various channels.
  - welterde 5y ago
    Registration is a bit of a sore point (and is being worked on in the IRCv3 WG), but login, ops, channel listing, etc. afterwards isn't - that's all handled quite well by modern graphical IRC clients.
- tnorthcutt 5y ago
  Try going to https://libera.chat/guides/clients https://libera.chat/guides/clients and reading through that page, and keep track of how many words a non-technical user would not understand. Here's my list: client IRC SASL authentication graphical clients terminal clients bouncers From the very beginning there's jargon. The page does do a good job of explaining the jargon though, so they get points for that. However, if you're a new user, the difference between this 365 word wall of text full of new words and strange client names is striking compared to e.g. Slack's obvious "TRY FOR FREE" button.
  - jodrellblank 5y ago
    > "keep track of how many words a non-technical user would not understand." And it's not just the words on their own; the instructions and wider context are strewn with internal techo-details, there's no step by step path through them, no strong recommendations; given this is under "About IRC" it starts with "choosing a client" as if you already know what that is and why you want one. Paragraph 2 is about SASL. ("repository of instructions" - why not "instructions"?). You're a "connecting to IRC for the fist time", you click the link to the preferred authentication method. "SASL is a method that allows identification to services (NickServ) during the connection process, before anything else happens - therefore eliminating the need to /msg NickServ identify" - word salad. A way to eliminate the need to do a thing you've never heard of and don't know why you'd want to do it at all. Nope back to the main page. "If you're interested in ensuring the security of your connection" - am I? Should I be? I don't know what "my connection" even is in any practical sense, or what the consequences of it being secure or insecure are - click the link; "'is using a secure connection will appear in WHOIS (a 671 numeric)'" ... what? "In order to verify the server certificates on connection, some additional work may be required. First, ensure that your system has an up-to-date set of root CA certificates." nope back out of that. "If you cannot install apps on your computer, you can use a web app" - I don't know if I can install apps on my computer. How can I use a (web) app if I can't install apps? Is this web app Google? Can I not use the web app at any other time? "Kiwi IRC is a popular free web client that you don’t have to sign up for" - the first time 'sign up' is mentioned is to tell me I don't have to do it. Then why mention it? "a popular web client service that keeps you connected after you close the page..." - technobabble word salad. What's a "web client service"? It keeps me connected, what does that mean? It sends me notifications or something? Why do I want to be connected after closing the page, isn't closing the page my intent to leave? So it's an infection or something, does it hack my computer to stay there? How do I get rid of it? "...and has a limited free plan" - what are the limits? Is it good enough? Presumably not - if the limits were enough you wouldn't mention them, right? You don't mention 'free plan' before or after, does all of this cost money? Any of it? "Graphical clients - These are clients that you navigate primarily with your mouse cursor or touch" - what non-technical user thinks in terms of "navigating"? Graphical, if I want graphs? Graphics? Pictures? Those are good, yeah? Surely, surely the kind of semi-technical/poweruser who might be about to use IRC for the first time is the most likely to use keyboard hotkeys in GUI programs? "They can be installed on your device directly or accessed in a web browser." - you just told me I had to use the web browser when I couldn't install a client, now one of the clients is in a web browser? "Terminal or text based clients are clients which you primarily navigate with keyboard shortcuts. As these typically do not need mouse navigation, [...] WeeChat is a popular terminal client which has an experimental mouse mode option" - ???? I'm a new user to IRC, non-technial apparently, and I'm already into the experimental options in one specific TUI client. Steep. "Bouncers are clients which act as a hub between other clients and the IRC network. They allow you to see one connection from multiple places" - ??? Words. About a thing. Bouncers guard the door and keep bad people out? There's a big pink call to action "connect" button in the top right, which is a surprise dropdown offering a TLS connection, a plaintext connection, a "How to Connect" option, but despite being a web page with web hyperlinks, none of them are links to web clients that actually connect to anything. Even knowing IRC, I'm surprised, I was expecting an instant CGI gateway link or something. (Remember, web clients are the things you use if you can't install apps, or if you want graphics, and you want graphics if you navigate with a mouse). The menu on the left has "Helping you connect" which has "Using CertFP" above "Connecting to Libera.chat", because creating a self-signed certificate using Cygwin (which isn't explained or linked) is more helpful than the address of Libera chat? It must be possible to run this kind of page past a hundred "non-technical" users via Mechanical Turk or similar, and have them circle the places that are confusing or they don't follow?
mbreese 5y ago
UX isn't really a function of the protocol though. With email, you see a lot more diversity in UX experiences between clients. IRC chat has historically been a CLI interaction, with limits what you can do, UX-wise. And even the GUI clients tend to emulate much of what you'd have in a CLI or TUI. There is a lot that could be done to make it more friendly to a new user. But, that extra amount of complexity that's involved with a protocol approach (which program should I use? which server do I connect to?) is definitely a UX issue. But, I think these are issues that could be solved w/in the community. For example, Libera. Chat has a nice set of pages that start with "Which client should I use?". I could completely see a set of "How to use IRC" pages to help new users get started.
- halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
  Average Joe and Sally want Web 3.0 UX shiny, they don't want nerdy CLIs or overcomplicated setups. The HN crowd has blinders on when it comes to this because we're power users, the complexity doesn't bother us but it's a complete non-starter for normal people.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- mumblemumble 5y ago
  Maybe not completely, though. The guide is definitely helpful, but a lot of people don't want a list of 10 different options to have to trudge through. Even if you're more than skilled enough to understand and digest a guide like that, going through it and making a choice still takes mental energy that busy people don't necessarily want to expend. What sites like Slack and Discord offer that, to the best of my knowledge, no IRC network does, is a one stop shop. A "go to webpage, click button, now you're chatting" experience, all hosted right there in one place, together with free and zero-configuration apps for both desktop and mobile with push and perhaps even email notifications and all sorts of goodies like that. Which I personally think is fine. Maintaining that kind of tightly integrated experience costs money. Corporate money. Which, as this freenode kerfuffle illustrates, isn't necessarily something I want getting quite so tangled up in my IRC networks. But I'm also fine with communities that have different values or are trying to cater to different audiences choosing an option that feels better to them. I'm not sure it serves anyone's interests to be a busybody about these things.
badsectoracula 5y ago
Discord is really IRC with a prettier skin. All the weird technical stuff you'll see on IRC you'll also find on Discord. Discord has some additional features, but those are on top of the existing IRCisms, making it actually harder for a newbie to get on board. But you know, people aren't that stupid, they figure things out -like they did in the 90s with IRC- because they want to join the community. Back in late 90s/early 2000s, netcafes were full with non-technical people who used Internet just because of mIRC (many called it just "mIRC") to chat with others. We're talking about people who barely knew the difference between a file and a folder and yet became proficient enough with mIRC to simultaneously chat in several channels. The #1 issue isn't technical, it is social. People do not join Discord because it is better than IRC/Matrix/whatever, they join it because the communities they want to be part of are on Discord.
- dralley 5y ago
  It isn't, though... connecting to a new Discord group is basically a one-step operation. Connecting to a new IRC server might require some setup of the server, and possibly registration with Nickserv, which is a bot pretending to be a user that you interact with via /msg. And you need to connect to individual channels, and there's often no good way of sorting them by purpose rather than by what server they're present on, something that most users probably don't care about. I use IRC every day, but I'm not going to pretend it's straightforwards compared to the alternatives. It absolutely is not.
  - badsectoracula 5y ago
    None of those things are showstoppers or really anything more than tiny issues - if they are issues at all. You do not need to register with nickserv (it is optional if you want to be a regular and not have someone else take your name) and the commands aren't any different than all the commands that Discord has (some are even the same) - hell, pretty much every other Discord server/channel has IRC-like botcommands that begin with a ! like you'd find on IRC in 1996. Also i'm not pretending that IRC is straightforward, i'm saying that Discord is as complex as IRC is and adds additional complexity on top of that - sure, some parts might be simpler (though connecting to a new server is not necessarily among them as most IRC clients register the irc: handler with browsers so you can click on any web link to join a server and enter a channel) but those do not negate the complex parts it adds. And the most important part: the vast majority of people do not use use Discord because it is easier (or harder or whatever) than IRC (or Matrix or whatever), they use it because the communities they want to be part of are on Discord.

swiley 5y ago

>Teaching someone IRC You mean handing them xchat/colloquy/kiwichat and telling them to come up with a name and click this text box to send a message? Sure irssi is hard to use but unlike Slack and Discord you're not stuck with a single terrible client.

TheAdamAndChe 5y ago
And tell them how to register the nickname, and tell them how to log in, and tell them how to list rooms and join them. Then teach them about op codes. (Lack of) Ease of use is a big reason for IRC's loss in popularity.
- swiley 5y ago
  You don't need to register a nickname (I didn't when I used freenode) In the clients I mentioned listing and joining rooms works the same way it does on discord and slack: you open the list and click the ones you want to join.
- SamoyedFurFluff 5y ago
  Discord/Slack already has a bunch of those things- how to mute channels is a big one, as well as how to change ones nickname, how to get a role, and managing permissions for various channels.
- welterde 5y ago
  Registration is a bit of a sore point (and is being worked on in the IRCv3 WG), but login, ops, channel listing, etc. afterwards isn't - that's all handled quite well by modern graphical IRC clients.
tnorthcutt 5y ago
Try going to https://libera.chat/guides/clients https://libera.chat/guides/clients and reading through that page, and keep track of how many words a non-technical user would not understand. Here's my list: client IRC SASL authentication graphical clients terminal clients bouncers From the very beginning there's jargon. The page does do a good job of explaining the jargon though, so they get points for that. However, if you're a new user, the difference between this 365 word wall of text full of new words and strange client names is striking compared to e.g. Slack's obvious "TRY FOR FREE" button.
- jodrellblank 5y ago
  > "keep track of how many words a non-technical user would not understand." And it's not just the words on their own; the instructions and wider context are strewn with internal techo-details, there's no step by step path through them, no strong recommendations; given this is under "About IRC" it starts with "choosing a client" as if you already know what that is and why you want one. Paragraph 2 is about SASL. ("repository of instructions" - why not "instructions"?). You're a "connecting to IRC for the fist time", you click the link to the preferred authentication method. "SASL is a method that allows identification to services (NickServ) during the connection process, before anything else happens - therefore eliminating the need to /msg NickServ identify" - word salad. A way to eliminate the need to do a thing you've never heard of and don't know why you'd want to do it at all. Nope back to the main page. "If you're interested in ensuring the security of your connection" - am I? Should I be? I don't know what "my connection" even is in any practical sense, or what the consequences of it being secure or insecure are - click the link; "'is using a secure connection will appear in WHOIS (a 671 numeric)'" ... what? "In order to verify the server certificates on connection, some additional work may be required. First, ensure that your system has an up-to-date set of root CA certificates." nope back out of that. "If you cannot install apps on your computer, you can use a web app" - I don't know if I can install apps on my computer. How can I use a (web) app if I can't install apps? Is this web app Google? Can I not use the web app at any other time? "Kiwi IRC is a popular free web client that you don’t have to sign up for" - the first time 'sign up' is mentioned is to tell me I don't have to do it. Then why mention it? "a popular web client service that keeps you connected after you close the page..." - technobabble word salad. What's a "web client service"? It keeps me connected, what does that mean? It sends me notifications or something? Why do I want to be connected after closing the page, isn't closing the page my intent to leave? So it's an infection or something, does it hack my computer to stay there? How do I get rid of it? "...and has a limited free plan" - what are the limits? Is it good enough? Presumably not - if the limits were enough you wouldn't mention them, right? You don't mention 'free plan' before or after, does all of this cost money? Any of it? "Graphical clients - These are clients that you navigate primarily with your mouse cursor or touch" - what non-technical user thinks in terms of "navigating"? Graphical, if I want graphs? Graphics? Pictures? Those are good, yeah? Surely, surely the kind of semi-technical/poweruser who might be about to use IRC for the first time is the most likely to use keyboard hotkeys in GUI programs? "They can be installed on your device directly or accessed in a web browser." - you just told me I had to use the web browser when I couldn't install a client, now one of the clients is in a web browser? "Terminal or text based clients are clients which you primarily navigate with keyboard shortcuts. As these typically do not need mouse navigation, [...] WeeChat is a popular terminal client which has an experimental mouse mode option" - ???? I'm a new user to IRC, non-technial apparently, and I'm already into the experimental options in one specific TUI client. Steep. "Bouncers are clients which act as a hub between other clients and the IRC network. They allow you to see one connection from multiple places" - ??? Words. About a thing. Bouncers guard the door and keep bad people out? There's a big pink call to action "connect" button in the top right, which is a surprise dropdown offering a TLS connection, a plaintext connection, a "How to Connect" option, but despite being a web page with web hyperlinks, none of them are links to web clients that actually connect to anything. Even knowing IRC, I'm surprised, I was expecting an instant CGI gateway link or something. (Remember, web clients are the things you use if you can't install apps, or if you want graphics, and you want graphics if you navigate with a mouse). The menu on the left has "Helping you connect" which has "Using CertFP" above "Connecting to Libera.chat", because creating a self-signed certificate using Cygwin (which isn't explained or linked) is more helpful than the address of Libera chat? It must be possible to run this kind of page past a hundred "non-technical" users via Mechanical Turk or similar, and have them circle the places that are confusing or they don't follow?

mbreese 5y ago

UX isn't really a function of the protocol though. With email, you see a lot more diversity in UX experiences between clients. IRC chat has historically been a CLI interaction, with limits what you can do, UX-wise. And even the GUI clients tend to emulate much of what you'd have in a CLI or TUI. There is a lot that could be done to make it more friendly to a new user. But, that extra amount of complexity that's involved with a protocol approach (which program should I use? which server do I connect to?) is definitely a UX issue. But, I think these are issues that could be solved w/in the community. For example, Libera. Chat has a nice set of pages that start with "Which client should I use?". I could completely see a set of "How to use IRC" pages to help new users get started.

halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
Average Joe and Sally want Web 3.0 UX shiny, they don't want nerdy CLIs or overcomplicated setups. The HN crowd has blinders on when it comes to this because we're power users, the complexity doesn't bother us but it's a complete non-starter for normal people.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mumblemumble 5y ago
Maybe not completely, though. The guide is definitely helpful, but a lot of people don't want a list of 10 different options to have to trudge through. Even if you're more than skilled enough to understand and digest a guide like that, going through it and making a choice still takes mental energy that busy people don't necessarily want to expend. What sites like Slack and Discord offer that, to the best of my knowledge, no IRC network does, is a one stop shop. A "go to webpage, click button, now you're chatting" experience, all hosted right there in one place, together with free and zero-configuration apps for both desktop and mobile with push and perhaps even email notifications and all sorts of goodies like that. Which I personally think is fine. Maintaining that kind of tightly integrated experience costs money. Corporate money. Which, as this freenode kerfuffle illustrates, isn't necessarily something I want getting quite so tangled up in my IRC networks. But I'm also fine with communities that have different values or are trying to cater to different audiences choosing an option that feels better to them. I'm not sure it serves anyone's interests to be a busybody about these things.

badsectoracula 5y ago

Discord is really IRC with a prettier skin. All the weird technical stuff you'll see on IRC you'll also find on Discord. Discord has some additional features, but those are on top of the existing IRCisms, making it actually harder for a newbie to get on board. But you know, people aren't that stupid, they figure things out -like they did in the 90s with IRC- because they want to join the community. Back in late 90s/early 2000s, netcafes were full with non-technical people who used Internet just because of mIRC (many called it just "mIRC") to chat with others. We're talking about people who barely knew the difference between a file and a folder and yet became proficient enough with mIRC to simultaneously chat in several channels. The #1 issue isn't technical, it is social. People do not join Discord because it is better than IRC/Matrix/whatever, they join it because the communities they want to be part of are on Discord.

dralley 5y ago
It isn't, though... connecting to a new Discord group is basically a one-step operation. Connecting to a new IRC server might require some setup of the server, and possibly registration with Nickserv, which is a bot pretending to be a user that you interact with via /msg. And you need to connect to individual channels, and there's often no good way of sorting them by purpose rather than by what server they're present on, something that most users probably don't care about. I use IRC every day, but I'm not going to pretend it's straightforwards compared to the alternatives. It absolutely is not.
- badsectoracula 5y ago
  None of those things are showstoppers or really anything more than tiny issues - if they are issues at all. You do not need to register with nickserv (it is optional if you want to be a regular and not have someone else take your name) and the commands aren't any different than all the commands that Discord has (some are even the same) - hell, pretty much every other Discord server/channel has IRC-like botcommands that begin with a ! like you'd find on IRC in 1996. Also i'm not pretending that IRC is straightforward, i'm saying that Discord is as complex as IRC is and adds additional complexity on top of that - sure, some parts might be simpler (though connecting to a new server is not necessarily among them as most IRC clients register the irc: handler with browsers so you can click on any web link to join a server and enter a channel) but those do not negate the complex parts it adds. And the most important part: the vast majority of people do not use use Discord because it is easier (or harder or whatever) than IRC (or Matrix or whatever), they use it because the communities they want to be part of are on Discord.