5 ms·
To call that bend on the Volga where Kazan is located Europe shows how much you need to stretch the facts to support that view. Citing Bosnia might have helped
by febeling 5y ago
To call that bend on the Volga where Kazan is located Europe shows how much you need to stretch the facts to support that view. Citing Bosnia might have helped your point better, I guess.
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y agoI checked it out on a map, it looks like it's on this side of the Urals by a pretty good margin, so I don't see how it's at all a stretch.
- Grustaf 5y agoIf someone talks about “Europe” they are not referring to “anything west of the Urals”, they mean Germany, France etc, possibly Hungary, Slovakia etc or, if they are feeling generous, Ukraine and Belarus. It has never happened that two people were chatting about “European culture and values” and had the khanate of Kazan in mind.
- michael1999 5y agoIsn’t that exactly the point? There is a geographic Europe which is much larger and more diverse than NATO Europe, the EU, or Christian Europe like to admit.
- Grustaf 5y agoWhat is the point about that? Nobody is worried about "geographic Europe", people care about actual Europe, not some technical term. If someone is worried that Arab Muslims, or for that matter Arab Christians, will not assimilate into European culture and are incompatible with European values, how is it even remotely relevant that there is a tiny federal subject in what is technically European Russia where there's a lot of Muslims? Only someone entirely unfamiliar with Europe would think this makes any difference. If you want to talk about Islam, focus instead on Bosnia, in the heart of Europe. While definitely not without their issues, comparing Bosniaks and Assyrians show that culture is more relevant than religion when it comes to integration.
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y agoI just think the conventional definition of Europe makes sense. Narrower definitions are too ephemeral for my taste, with countries constantly being absorbed into and breaking out of empires as they wax and wane, whereas the Ural mountains aren't going anywhere soon. That said, to address the point that started the discussion, I think it's just silly to use "there exists some Muslim country somewhere else" as some kind of gotcha against German critics of Islam. The Ottomans were milling around Vienna for a long time, that's a whole lot closer than either Bosnia or Kazan.
- michael1999 5y agoWhat is "actual" Europe? Who gets to decide? Consider Russia: are they, or are they not "European"? Is the Orthodox Church European? That you think the answer is so simple, or that anyone who thinks differently is "nobody" is part of why it is so unsettled.
- Grustaf 5y agoIt's not a simple question, that's not the point. I happen to be Orthodox, and having lived in Russia I can say that the answer varies depending on context. Most of the time Europe is the "other". European standard means high quality, "My brother works in Europe", a "European car" etc. Even when contrasting Russia with very exotic cultures most people wouldn't see Russia as part of Europe, they just say "Japan is different from Russia", not "from Europe". And I'm not sure it's a very meaningful question either. What is clear is that there are very few cases where people would consider Kazan European. I haven't been there, but I highly doubt they feel very European, in any sense. And there are exactly 0 cases where anyone ever would find it _representative_ of "Europe", and that is what we are discussing here. It simply doesn't make sense to say "There are Muslims in Kazan and that is technically Europe so anyone objecting to Arab Muslims in Munich is wrong". That's just a silly argument. I've also lived in Jordan and I can tell you that Muslims there don't feel any particular connection with those in Kazan. Circassians may perhaps feel differently, I don't know.
- michael1999 5y ago
- arethuza 5y agoIf I use the term "Europe" I mean the usual definition of the continent of Europe which is pretty much "everything west of the Urals". As far as I'm concerned, Moscow is in Europe.
- Grustaf 5y agoYou’re not from Europe I presume?
- arethuza 5y agoScotland, so yes I am.
- Tabular-Iceberg 5y agoNot even that can be taken for granted anymore. I was once harassed by French border police for being in the line for European (not EU, the sign definitely said European and not Union) nationals with a Norwegian passport.
- cmrdporcupine 5y agoHow about this, then: the region we're talking about is right in the homeland of the Yamnaya people, AKA the people who spoke Proto-Indo-European, and the ancestors of all Europeans. ("region between the Southern Bug, Dniester, and Ural rivers" as per WP) In terms of genetics, the R1b haplogroup spread from that region, and is the most common haplogroup among modern Europeans. So, if you're European or European-descended, many of your ancestors lived there a few thousand years ago. And the language you just wrote in traces its ancestry back to that region (as does German) EDIT: The point of what I wrote is just that the ethno-linguistic composition of regions is very fluid, and drawing lines around a region and saying "this is what German is" (or whatever) is just a dumb exercise when you put it in historical context. (My own ancestors include many in Alsace, so I'm keenly aware of this -- what's "French"? what's "German"?). Essentialism is dumb.