7 ms·

Why are people still using IRC? Aren't there better, more private/secure channels? I understand that many of these channels are intentionally private, but IRC

Why are people still using IRC? Aren't there better, more private/secure channels? I understand that many of these channels are intentionally private, but IRC is still unencrypted in transit, so everything is exposed and users have no anonymity.

pteraspidomorph 5y ago
Daemon and client implementations have effectively supported SSL/TLS for many years now. You can't control whether server links are encrypted (that's up to the owners; in a competently run network they will be) but all major networks have one or more encrypted connection ports. 6697 is a typical choice. On mIRC, prefix the port number with a + to use SSL. Newer protocols are more feature rich and don't have some of the legacy drawbacks of IRC, of course.
l-p 5y ago
> but IRC is still unencrypted in transit TLS is an option, not ideal but better than no TLS at all.
- agumonkey 5y ago
  Seen a few people pushing it. That said I keep having the good old plain data link
OldGoodNewBad 5y ago
Nothing is better than IRC.
- bbarnett 5y ago
  Indeed! http://bfinn.com http://bfinn.com
pferde 5y ago
That is not necessarily true for Freenode or Libera. Client connections over TLS are encouraged, and I'm pretty sure that server-to-server links are all over TLS also. Plus, there are some controls for users and channel admins to make sure they are talking over TLS only, such as +S channel mode, which only lets in TLS-using client connections to join.
swiley 5y ago
Most modern servers use TLS so it isn't any worse than imessage.
- nixgeek 5y ago
  This is incorrect. iMessage is E2EE, which IRC is not.
  - swiley 5y ago
    Even if iMessage is E2EE (I don't think it is) the backups mean the messages end up on Apple's servers unencrypted. Either way Apple is able to access them when subpeonaed.
    - samtheprogram 5y ago
      It is E2EE, and the backups on Apple's servers are encrypted. However, if you also have iCloud Backup turned on, the encryption key is backed up plain-text [1][2], so the effect ("Apple is able to access them when subpeonaed" sic.) remains the same in those cases, but it can be configured/avoided. [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/8nbgyu/messages_in_icloud_is_e2e_encrypted_but_apple_may/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/8nbgyu/messages_in_i...
      - swiley 5y ago
        Do you use imessage in any groups were there isn't at least one member that has iCloud Backup turned off? I don't know a single person with it off.
        nixgeek 5y ago
        Yes, several, they mostly all work in security and actually read the Platform Security Guide and made a decision the inconveniences were outweighed by the strengths of not storing that key. Remember also that subpoenas rarely permit “fishing expeditions”, so if they want your iMessages, can convince the judiciary you have potentially committed a crime, your key not being stored and the E2EE nature doesn’t always mean a judge is going to let LE go after Bob, Joe, Bill and everyone you have messaged with and demand Apple hand over all their iMessages (if they have backups enabled).
qiqitori 5y ago
IRC is inherently non-private because anybody can join and then do whatever with what they saw. IRC isn't really unencrypted in transit though, you can connect via SSL (most people do so, probably) and there are channel modes on some networks that prevent people from joining if they aren't using SSL to connect. You can also encrypt messages yourself and then send those on top of the IRC protocol. As for anonymity, most IRC networks allow you to use a cloak to hide your IP (requires user registration, which would require one email interaction), some IRC networks hide your IP (or parts of the reverse DNS) and some IRC networks allow you to join using Tor.
- arminiusreturns 5y ago
  I also encourage the use of proxy servers and/or vpns(preferably not as a service!) when using irc on the wild world of the web. In addition to cloaking, and everything else you mentioned.
- progval 5y ago
  > IRC is inherently non-private because anybody can join Servers and channels can have passwords. Channels can also be invite-only.
unionpivo 5y ago
Because it's one of the rare still used open protocol supported by multiple servers and clients implementations and not backed by single corporate entity. In short there are other new technologies, but most of them are corporate walled gardens, or small open source projects that only have one server/client implementation, and few servers under control of single entity. The Matrix ecosystem is the only thing I can think of, that could eventually replace IRC. (There might be others, I am just not familiar with them) End even if they are somehow similar, discussions on Discord and Slack and other similar platforms are different than on IRC, at least in my experience. One defining future of IRC at least channels I frequent and Discords/Slacks/Matrix is less memes and animated things grabbing your attention. Another big thing is, that new stuff like Discord/Slack/Matrix are combination of messenger and discussion forum, while IRC is discussion only. I almost never bother reading chat history in IRC, but in Slacks/... you are expected to keep up with @mentions and on "important channels" etc. IRC is more of a tavern room, you come in have discussion with people currently in, some people come some people go during that and then you leave and that is that. While on newer apps you are expected to keep up. I don't know how to describe it better, but fore me that's the biggest difference.
- lolmatrixx 5y ago
  > The Matrix ecosystem is the only thing I can think of, that could eventually replace IRC. (There might be others, I am just not familiar with them) There is no ecosystem, despite public documentation of the "protocol," Synapse is the actual standard when it comes to Matrix, so it's your only homeserver choice. Element is the only client. These are both produced by a for profit company. They're no different than Rocket Chat or Mattermost but with way less honest marketing towards hackers. Also, the federation is fake (stops working when matrix.org goes down) and the identity to Matrix ID mapping is centralized at vector.im -- if you want a silo you can host your own identity mapping server, but then you can't be found on the wider network. Matrix is a joke. It's a series of grant deliverables flying in formation and pretending to be a protocol. Oh and the CEO is wildly unprofessional, he's on here all the time as Arathorn in any thread about Matrix, spreading FUD about other networks and selling lies about his to gullible nerds Matrix sucks. Modern XMPP is literally better in every way, and also still sucks. But at least federation is real, in XMPP.
agumonkey 5y ago
Stupid, light, fast I got used.to discord but it's not the same
- donio 5y ago
  There is a Discord plugin for bitlbee, that way you can use an IRC client to chat on Discord. https://github.com/sm00th/bitlbee-discord https://github.com/sm00th/bitlbee-discord
andrey_utkin 5y ago
> Why are people still using IRC? Aren't there better, more private/secure channels? Equilibrium. An old essay "A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy" explains this idea in an enlightening way: https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2005-shirky-agroupisitsownworstenemy.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2005-shirky-agroupisit... > Some pieces of social software, like IRC channels and mailing lists,are self-moderating with scale, because as the signal-to-noise ratio gets worse, people start to drop off, until it gets better, so people join, and so it gets worse. You get these sorts of oscillating patterns, but the overall system is self-correcting
knorker 5y ago
Efficient, supports terminal mode natively, open, and frankly for exactly this reason. If whatsapp, or apple, or google, or facebook does anything like this then all you can do is shrug and accept it. But if you have $5 a month then you can run an IRC network with a VM. > IRC is still unencrypted in transit Sometimes. But there's also a lot of TLS, and it's trending upwards. > users have no anonymity Less anonyminity against each other, but more against the central powerful provider. And while you may have my IP on IRC (depends on the network), what are you as a private individual supposed to do with that information? Whereas when centralized it becomes monetizable.
kyrra 5y ago
To pile on, Google uses internally for incident response [0] > Google has found IRC to be a huge boon in incident response. IRC is very reliable and can be used as a log of communications about this event, and such a record is invaluable in keeping detailed state changes in mind. We’ve also written bots that log incident-related traffic (which is helpful for postmortem analysis), and other bots that log events such as alerts to the channel. IRC is also a convenient medium over which geographically distributed teams can coordinate. Also, irc can still be up when Chat, Hangouts or other tools are down. It's simple tech that is easy to interact with. [0] https://sre.google/sre-book/managing-incidents/ https://sre.google/sre-book/managing-incidents/
- CydeWeys 5y ago
  Worth pointing out that IRC isn't necessarily the first choice for coordinating a response, but it is a great low-dependency, independent fallback. IRC runs on a stack that is completely independent from the rest of Google prod (it's just a Linux machine running an IRC daemon). So when almost everything else goes down, so long as basic network routing is still working, IRC is still up.
  - kyrra 5y ago
    Point taken. For smaller incidents, Chat or Meet are regularly used. But larger (cross-team or maybe infra related) are handled in IRC.
- hobs 5y ago
  Apple hosted and used its own IRC for decades and sadly I saw the last of it die off ~ 2010 for any support uses. iChat internally at a site was not a replacement.
donio 5y ago
For me it's the simplicity and the availability of good Emacs based clients. For other services there are some Emacs clients but none of them are as good as the IRC clients. There are also some proxy tools that let me use Emacs IRC clients to connect to other chat services, I use those when possible. This way I can do all my chatting from the comfort of my Emacs session.

pteraspidomorph 5y ago

Daemon and client implementations have effectively supported SSL/TLS for many years now. You can't control whether server links are encrypted (that's up to the owners; in a competently run network they will be) but all major networks have one or more encrypted connection ports. 6697 is a typical choice. On mIRC, prefix the port number with a + to use SSL. Newer protocols are more feature rich and don't have some of the legacy drawbacks of IRC, of course.

l-p 5y ago

> but IRC is still unencrypted in transit TLS is an option, not ideal but better than no TLS at all.

agumonkey 5y ago
Seen a few people pushing it. That said I keep having the good old plain data link

OldGoodNewBad 5y ago

Nothing is better than IRC.

bbarnett 5y ago
Indeed! http://bfinn.com http://bfinn.com

pferde 5y ago

That is not necessarily true for Freenode or Libera. Client connections over TLS are encouraged, and I'm pretty sure that server-to-server links are all over TLS also. Plus, there are some controls for users and channel admins to make sure they are talking over TLS only, such as +S channel mode, which only lets in TLS-using client connections to join.

swiley 5y ago

Most modern servers use TLS so it isn't any worse than imessage.

nixgeek 5y ago
This is incorrect. iMessage is E2EE, which IRC is not.
- swiley 5y ago
  Even if iMessage is E2EE (I don't think it is) the backups mean the messages end up on Apple's servers unencrypted. Either way Apple is able to access them when subpeonaed.
  - samtheprogram 5y ago
    It is E2EE, and the backups on Apple's servers are encrypted. However, if you also have iCloud Backup turned on, the encryption key is backed up plain-text [1][2], so the effect ("Apple is able to access them when subpeonaed" sic.) remains the same in those cases, but it can be configured/avoided. [1]: https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT202303 [2]: https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/8nbgyu/messages_in_icloud_is_e2e_encrypted_but_apple_may/ https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/8nbgyu/messages_in_i...
    - swiley 5y ago
      Do you use imessage in any groups were there isn't at least one member that has iCloud Backup turned off? I don't know a single person with it off.
      - nixgeek 5y ago
        Yes, several, they mostly all work in security and actually read the Platform Security Guide and made a decision the inconveniences were outweighed by the strengths of not storing that key. Remember also that subpoenas rarely permit “fishing expeditions”, so if they want your iMessages, can convince the judiciary you have potentially committed a crime, your key not being stored and the E2EE nature doesn’t always mean a judge is going to let LE go after Bob, Joe, Bill and everyone you have messaged with and demand Apple hand over all their iMessages (if they have backups enabled).

qiqitori 5y ago

IRC is inherently non-private because anybody can join and then do whatever with what they saw. IRC isn't really unencrypted in transit though, you can connect via SSL (most people do so, probably) and there are channel modes on some networks that prevent people from joining if they aren't using SSL to connect. You can also encrypt messages yourself and then send those on top of the IRC protocol. As for anonymity, most IRC networks allow you to use a cloak to hide your IP (requires user registration, which would require one email interaction), some IRC networks hide your IP (or parts of the reverse DNS) and some IRC networks allow you to join using Tor.

arminiusreturns 5y ago
I also encourage the use of proxy servers and/or vpns(preferably not as a service!) when using irc on the wild world of the web. In addition to cloaking, and everything else you mentioned.
progval 5y ago
> IRC is inherently non-private because anybody can join Servers and channels can have passwords. Channels can also be invite-only.

unionpivo 5y ago

Because it's one of the rare still used open protocol supported by multiple servers and clients implementations and not backed by single corporate entity. In short there are other new technologies, but most of them are corporate walled gardens, or small open source projects that only have one server/client implementation, and few servers under control of single entity. The Matrix ecosystem is the only thing I can think of, that could eventually replace IRC. (There might be others, I am just not familiar with them) End even if they are somehow similar, discussions on Discord and Slack and other similar platforms are different than on IRC, at least in my experience. One defining future of IRC at least channels I frequent and Discords/Slacks/Matrix is less memes and animated things grabbing your attention. Another big thing is, that new stuff like Discord/Slack/Matrix are combination of messenger and discussion forum, while IRC is discussion only. I almost never bother reading chat history in IRC, but in Slacks/... you are expected to keep up with @mentions and on "important channels" etc. IRC is more of a tavern room, you come in have discussion with people currently in, some people come some people go during that and then you leave and that is that. While on newer apps you are expected to keep up. I don't know how to describe it better, but fore me that's the biggest difference.

lolmatrixx 5y ago
> The Matrix ecosystem is the only thing I can think of, that could eventually replace IRC. (There might be others, I am just not familiar with them) There is no ecosystem, despite public documentation of the "protocol," Synapse is the actual standard when it comes to Matrix, so it's your only homeserver choice. Element is the only client. These are both produced by a for profit company. They're no different than Rocket Chat or Mattermost but with way less honest marketing towards hackers. Also, the federation is fake (stops working when matrix.org goes down) and the identity to Matrix ID mapping is centralized at vector.im -- if you want a silo you can host your own identity mapping server, but then you can't be found on the wider network. Matrix is a joke. It's a series of grant deliverables flying in formation and pretending to be a protocol. Oh and the CEO is wildly unprofessional, he's on here all the time as Arathorn in any thread about Matrix, spreading FUD about other networks and selling lies about his to gullible nerds Matrix sucks. Modern XMPP is literally better in every way, and also still sucks. But at least federation is real, in XMPP.

agumonkey 5y ago

Stupid, light, fast I got used.to discord but it's not the same

donio 5y ago
There is a Discord plugin for bitlbee, that way you can use an IRC client to chat on Discord. https://github.com/sm00th/bitlbee-discord https://github.com/sm00th/bitlbee-discord

andrey_utkin 5y ago

> Why are people still using IRC? Aren't there better, more private/secure channels? Equilibrium. An old essay "A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy" explains this idea in an enlightening way: https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2005-shirky-agroupisitsownworstenemy.pdf https://www.gwern.net/docs/technology/2005-shirky-agroupisit... > Some pieces of social software, like IRC channels and mailing lists,are self-moderating with scale, because as the signal-to-noise ratio gets worse, people start to drop off, until it gets better, so people join, and so it gets worse. You get these sorts of oscillating patterns, but the overall system is self-correcting

knorker 5y ago

Efficient, supports terminal mode natively, open, and frankly for exactly this reason. If whatsapp, or apple, or google, or facebook does anything like this then all you can do is shrug and accept it. But if you have $5 a month then you can run an IRC network with a VM. > IRC is still unencrypted in transit Sometimes. But there's also a lot of TLS, and it's trending upwards. > users have no anonymity Less anonyminity against each other, but more against the central powerful provider. And while you may have my IP on IRC (depends on the network), what are you as a private individual supposed to do with that information? Whereas when centralized it becomes monetizable.

kyrra 5y ago

To pile on, Google uses internally for incident response [0] > Google has found IRC to be a huge boon in incident response. IRC is very reliable and can be used as a log of communications about this event, and such a record is invaluable in keeping detailed state changes in mind. We’ve also written bots that log incident-related traffic (which is helpful for postmortem analysis), and other bots that log events such as alerts to the channel. IRC is also a convenient medium over which geographically distributed teams can coordinate. Also, irc can still be up when Chat, Hangouts or other tools are down. It's simple tech that is easy to interact with. [0] https://sre.google/sre-book/managing-incidents/ https://sre.google/sre-book/managing-incidents/

CydeWeys 5y ago
Worth pointing out that IRC isn't necessarily the first choice for coordinating a response, but it is a great low-dependency, independent fallback. IRC runs on a stack that is completely independent from the rest of Google prod (it's just a Linux machine running an IRC daemon). So when almost everything else goes down, so long as basic network routing is still working, IRC is still up.
- kyrra 5y ago
  Point taken. For smaller incidents, Chat or Meet are regularly used. But larger (cross-team or maybe infra related) are handled in IRC.
hobs 5y ago
Apple hosted and used its own IRC for decades and sadly I saw the last of it die off ~ 2010 for any support uses. iChat internally at a site was not a replacement.

donio 5y ago

For me it's the simplicity and the availability of good Emacs based clients. For other services there are some Emacs clients but none of them are as good as the IRC clients. There are also some proxy tools that let me use Emacs IRC clients to connect to other chat services, I use those when possible. This way I can do all my chatting from the comfort of my Emacs session.