5 ms·

In Germany, thier is a whole army of lawyers seeding copyrighted material on torrents to extract money

by max_hammer 5y ago

ComodoHacker 5y ago
Has any other lawyer tried to sue them?
- durnygbur 5y ago
  Both copyright predator and counter copyright predator industries are huge in Germany. These two together will absorb any volume of money you'll throw at them.
- andi999 5y ago
  It is legal as far as I understand.
  - ComodoHacker 5y ago
    How is it legal? Do they get permissions from copyright owners?
    - buran77 5y ago
      Yes, they represent large content owner conglomerates and have the permission to go after pirates. The shady part is where they can just go to the ISP and request the personal customer information associated to an IP they believe is transferring the infringing content. In Germany the law allows lawyers to ask and get this info from the ISP purely based on suspicion. This is the dirty secret related to how Germany enforces piracy laws. Getting internet access is predicated by accepting that this information will be passed on to private third parties (imagine getting internet access only if you agree to send your identity to Facebook if they want to check you are not violating FB rules by using a fake name). Between this and the fact that a lawsuit is expensive and time consuming, they probably never pursue minor infringement in court if they get a counter from the user's lawyer.
      - lgierth 5y ago
        They do need a court order, see my other comment
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - elliekelly 5y ago
    How does it not violate legal ethics requirements?
indymike 5y ago
Allowing lawyers to create their own cases is a dark, dark pattern.
- andreareina 5y ago
  Isn't that what got the Prenda Law partners in hot water?
  - indymike 5y ago
    Yes.
- buran77 5y ago
  Even worse, they are given free access (no warrant) to ISP information about the individuals they presume to be infringing so they can tie an identity to an IP linked to infringing material. Lawyers win either way, via the fines that they ask for (people are scared that this could escalate and just pay), or the fees to fight the fines (usually a letter highlighting the situation that personal information was obtained without a court order). So they have all the incentive to propagate the practice.
  - lgierth 5y ago
    They do need a court order, see my other comment
    - buran77 5y ago
      There are ISPs who provide that information based on agreements with the law firms (what you called the automated process - quite literally there's no meaningful human intervention at any point which goes against every principle). Those cases will be dropped as soon as they receive a counter letter from a lawyer because it's the kind of thing that's supposed to stay in the shadow. A court order is not supposed to be automated because it's exceedingly simple to make it output whatever you want while still claiming good faith.
arximboldi 5y ago
Yes! I find it so ironic, in a country that prides itself for it's stance for "privacy", that random predatory lawyers can just get from ISP's the personal details behind any IP address on the basis of potential IP infringement. It is really infuriating...
- lgierth 5y ago
  They need to go and get a court order, and with that they request the personal data from the respective ISP. The whole process is pretty steamlined and partly automated though. Source: have been through many copyright claims and currently have a supreme court lawsuit pending.
  - durnygbur 5y ago
    Many claims by copyright predators go through the courts in Munich and Koeln which seem to rubberstamp every case. Cunts from Waldorf Frommer being among the most notorius. If only the healthcare, local administration and other services in Germany were working so seamlessly...
    - lgierth 5y ago
      Yep, Waldorf Frommer, and District Court Koeln, fond memories :)
marcus_holmes 5y ago
My GF got one, and spent a few days worried sick about it. She researched the correct response (iirc it was "don't admit liability and ask for proof that it was her that actually pirated the content" - basically exploiting the flaw that you are not your IP address and they don't know how many other people could have used that IP address). Haven't heard back from them. This law is way too easy to abuse.
rolph 5y ago
>> lawyers seeding copyrighted material on torrents<< this should be considered a release into the public domain, an invitaion to use the file at no charge. >>lawyers seeding copyrighted material on torrents to extract money<< this should be some form of racketeering [trolling isnt strong enough lable]
- durnygbur 5y ago
  The copyright predators Waldorf Frommer [1] and their representatives are, or at least were, using services of ipoque GmbH [2] to impersonate peers in BitTorrent networks and collect IP addresses. Then the subscribers' personal data are obtained from ISPs with the court order by the court in Munich. Finally Waldorf Frommer attempts to extort money from individuals on the list. Lawyers from Waldorf Frommer and professionals from ipoque GmbH are participating in racketeering of residents in Germany on behalf of Twentieth Century Fox. [1] https://www.waldorf-frommer.de/team/ https://www.waldorf-frommer.de/team/ [2] https://www.ipoque.com/ https://www.ipoque.com/

In Germany, thier is a whole army of lawyers seeding copyrighted material on torrents to extract money

ComodoHacker 5y ago

Has any other lawyer tried to sue them?

durnygbur 5y ago
Both copyright predator and counter copyright predator industries are huge in Germany. These two together will absorb any volume of money you'll throw at them.
andi999 5y ago
It is legal as far as I understand.
- ComodoHacker 5y ago
  How is it legal? Do they get permissions from copyright owners?
  - buran77 5y ago
    Yes, they represent large content owner conglomerates and have the permission to go after pirates. The shady part is where they can just go to the ISP and request the personal customer information associated to an IP they believe is transferring the infringing content. In Germany the law allows lawyers to ask and get this info from the ISP purely based on suspicion. This is the dirty secret related to how Germany enforces piracy laws. Getting internet access is predicated by accepting that this information will be passed on to private third parties (imagine getting internet access only if you agree to send your identity to Facebook if they want to check you are not violating FB rules by using a fake name). Between this and the fact that a lawsuit is expensive and time consuming, they probably never pursue minor infringement in court if they get a counter from the user's lawyer.
    - lgierth 5y ago
      They do need a court order, see my other comment
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- elliekelly 5y ago
  How does it not violate legal ethics requirements?

indymike 5y ago

Allowing lawyers to create their own cases is a dark, dark pattern.

andreareina 5y ago
Isn't that what got the Prenda Law partners in hot water?
- indymike 5y ago
  Yes.
buran77 5y ago
Even worse, they are given free access (no warrant) to ISP information about the individuals they presume to be infringing so they can tie an identity to an IP linked to infringing material. Lawyers win either way, via the fines that they ask for (people are scared that this could escalate and just pay), or the fees to fight the fines (usually a letter highlighting the situation that personal information was obtained without a court order). So they have all the incentive to propagate the practice.
- lgierth 5y ago
  They do need a court order, see my other comment
  - buran77 5y ago
    There are ISPs who provide that information based on agreements with the law firms (what you called the automated process - quite literally there's no meaningful human intervention at any point which goes against every principle). Those cases will be dropped as soon as they receive a counter letter from a lawyer because it's the kind of thing that's supposed to stay in the shadow. A court order is not supposed to be automated because it's exceedingly simple to make it output whatever you want while still claiming good faith.

arximboldi 5y ago

Yes! I find it so ironic, in a country that prides itself for it's stance for "privacy", that random predatory lawyers can just get from ISP's the personal details behind any IP address on the basis of potential IP infringement. It is really infuriating...

lgierth 5y ago
They need to go and get a court order, and with that they request the personal data from the respective ISP. The whole process is pretty steamlined and partly automated though. Source: have been through many copyright claims and currently have a supreme court lawsuit pending.
- durnygbur 5y ago
  Many claims by copyright predators go through the courts in Munich and Koeln which seem to rubberstamp every case. Cunts from Waldorf Frommer being among the most notorius. If only the healthcare, local administration and other services in Germany were working so seamlessly...
  - lgierth 5y ago
    Yep, Waldorf Frommer, and District Court Koeln, fond memories :)

marcus_holmes 5y ago

My GF got one, and spent a few days worried sick about it. She researched the correct response (iirc it was "don't admit liability and ask for proof that it was her that actually pirated the content" - basically exploiting the flaw that you are not your IP address and they don't know how many other people could have used that IP address). Haven't heard back from them. This law is way too easy to abuse.

rolph 5y ago

>> lawyers seeding copyrighted material on torrents<< this should be considered a release into the public domain, an invitaion to use the file at no charge. >>lawyers seeding copyrighted material on torrents to extract money<< this should be some form of racketeering [trolling isnt strong enough lable]

durnygbur 5y ago
The copyright predators Waldorf Frommer [1] and their representatives are, or at least were, using services of ipoque GmbH [2] to impersonate peers in BitTorrent networks and collect IP addresses. Then the subscribers' personal data are obtained from ISPs with the court order by the court in Munich. Finally Waldorf Frommer attempts to extort money from individuals on the list. Lawyers from Waldorf Frommer and professionals from ipoque GmbH are participating in racketeering of residents in Germany on behalf of Twentieth Century Fox. [1] https://www.waldorf-frommer.de/team/ https://www.waldorf-frommer.de/team/ [2] https://www.ipoque.com/ https://www.ipoque.com/