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You say: > There is no 'right' and 'wrong' side of history. But then you conclude: > There was a lot of cruelty, bloodshed and lies. [...] The US could certa

by cies 5y ago

You say: > There is no 'right' and 'wrong' side of history. But then you conclude: > There was a lot of cruelty, bloodshed and lies. [...] The US could certainly have been much worse. So you do accept there's a gradient of right and wrong. > The US could certainly have been much worse. But also a lot better! > But there has not yet been anyone in history who avoided that while being large. What we've seen is next level. This is due to the increase in mobility and world trade, sure. But it has been abused heavily, and seemingly to every extend possible. I dont know how it could have been worse without being a straight up dictatorship. (having only two parties come very close to being a dictatorship if you ask me; only one party better than the China the US like to bash so much lately). > They've pushed science and the arts forward, promoted freedom as a cultural aspiration rather than rule by a monarch and generally acted as a credible supporting force for the greatest improvement of living standards the world has ever seen in Asia. Tell that to the Vietnamese and North Koreans. Indonesia and Philippines also have a bit of a US hangover. Science is fucked nowadays. Very "proprietary", as by the US-push patent law. I think there is right and wrong. Read some Jesus and you know that ideas of what it good behavior and what is bad is not at all new. I'm not religious, but just to show that it is not merely the last decades that we know we should be nice to people and now do any horrible act for a bit of profit.

roenxi 5y ago
There is a gradient of right and wrong. Most (realistically all) successful countries are on the wrong side of it. I mean, look at the path the Europeans took to get to the modern era. Short periods of it, like the last 2000 years, have involved questionable acts.
- pyrale 5y ago
  I believe the point is that we have to acknowledge this rather than sugar-coat US history.
  - roenxi 5y ago
    US history is extensively documented. Nobody is claiming that there aren't long lists of terrible things done (and still doing, I might add). The factual nature of those claims isn't really open to challenge. It is often pointed out in real time as the decisions are made. If 'acknowledge' literally means acknowledge then I doubt you'll struggle getting what you want. If 'acknowledge' means 'and then we have to follow my political recipe for what to do next' then it might be a struggle.
JPKab 5y ago
Bro you live in the Netherlands. I have numerous Dutch friends who are not as young and foolish, and your perspective is not the mainstream one in that country. Your nation was under occupation by the Nazis until the United States came in with the UK and made it otherwise. Obviously that doesn't mean the United States isn't imperfect and of course it has tremendous flaws and has yet to live up to its true ideals in its founding documents. That being said there aren't American soldiers walking around outside your door right now. Ask yourself if anyone in the EU will stand up for your nation? Angela Merkel sat on her hands and did absolutely nothing when a Dutch jet liner was blown up by Russian weaponry in Eastern Ukraine. Hundreds of your fellow citizens died and nobody in Europe did a single thing. Sure, sanctions were procured and many other nasty letters but not a single Russian military asset was arrested or brought to justice. Hundreds of your countrymen are dead and nobody was ever held accountable for it. It was a war crime and there is no trial. I look forward to the United States continuing to recede from its superpower status so that the world can finally realize what they were taking for granted. About half of the United States population spent the last 5 years talking about how terrible their government was. That makes the US unique compared to the other superpowers in the world which are authoritarian at their core. I should hope that India will eventually step up and develop into a democratic superpower but until then you have no other options other than a toothless, useless Germany dominated EU. The EU couldn't even handle vaccines properly, so I'm sure they'll do very well in protecting your citizens from the realities of authoritarian superpowers.
- chefkoch 5y ago
  While i don't agree with the whole US Bad sentiment, shooting down a civil airliner isn't something that never happened to the US military. And i don't think anyone went to jail for it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
- cies 5y ago
  So confused. "Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal." -- Immortal Technique
  - 5y ago

by cies 5y ago

roenxi 5y ago

There is a gradient of right and wrong. Most (realistically all) successful countries are on the wrong side of it. I mean, look at the path the Europeans took to get to the modern era. Short periods of it, like the last 2000 years, have involved questionable acts.

pyrale 5y ago
I believe the point is that we have to acknowledge this rather than sugar-coat US history.
- roenxi 5y ago
  US history is extensively documented. Nobody is claiming that there aren't long lists of terrible things done (and still doing, I might add). The factual nature of those claims isn't really open to challenge. It is often pointed out in real time as the decisions are made. If 'acknowledge' literally means acknowledge then I doubt you'll struggle getting what you want. If 'acknowledge' means 'and then we have to follow my political recipe for what to do next' then it might be a struggle.

JPKab 5y ago

Bro you live in the Netherlands. I have numerous Dutch friends who are not as young and foolish, and your perspective is not the mainstream one in that country. Your nation was under occupation by the Nazis until the United States came in with the UK and made it otherwise. Obviously that doesn't mean the United States isn't imperfect and of course it has tremendous flaws and has yet to live up to its true ideals in its founding documents. That being said there aren't American soldiers walking around outside your door right now. Ask yourself if anyone in the EU will stand up for your nation? Angela Merkel sat on her hands and did absolutely nothing when a Dutch jet liner was blown up by Russian weaponry in Eastern Ukraine. Hundreds of your fellow citizens died and nobody in Europe did a single thing. Sure, sanctions were procured and many other nasty letters but not a single Russian military asset was arrested or brought to justice. Hundreds of your countrymen are dead and nobody was ever held accountable for it. It was a war crime and there is no trial. I look forward to the United States continuing to recede from its superpower status so that the world can finally realize what they were taking for granted. About half of the United States population spent the last 5 years talking about how terrible their government was. That makes the US unique compared to the other superpowers in the world which are authoritarian at their core. I should hope that India will eventually step up and develop into a democratic superpower but until then you have no other options other than a toothless, useless Germany dominated EU. The EU couldn't even handle vaccines properly, so I'm sure they'll do very well in protecting your citizens from the realities of authoritarian superpowers.

chefkoch 5y ago
While i don't agree with the whole US Bad sentiment, shooting down a civil airliner isn't something that never happened to the US military. And i don't think anyone went to jail for it. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran_Air_Flight_655
cies 5y ago
So confused. "Universal truth is not measured in mass appeal." -- Immortal Technique
- 5y ago