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> I fell that makes an incredibly convincing case for vaccination, but I have not been able to convince any anti-vaxer with it, so there's that. People who don

> I fell that makes an incredibly convincing case for vaccination, but I have not been able to convince any anti-vaxer with it, so there's that. People who don't want to be vaccinated with the new vaccines are not necessarily anti-vaxers tho. You didn't spell it out, but you speak about COVID in the previous sentence. Vaccination is also not meant to be some cult rite where you need to believe in it. It needs to be tested and that did not yet happen properly, so it is actually more sane to wait. This becomes even more important because even the basic mechanism is not studied for vaccinations long-term at all. In Germany they push for vaccinating kids which is especially cynical given they have a COVID death rate which is lower than the death rate of some established vaccines. And COVID vaccines have way higher death rates even by official numbers (which are the lower bound). Just to make it more obvious: In Germany in total 21 people died with/because COVID in the age of 0-19 (~15M pop in that age). Do you not see the insanity of this?

maxerickson 5y ago
Pfizer is in the process of completing the normal licensing process: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-initiate-rolling-submission-biologics https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta... What's the next hurdle after that for being 'properly' tested?
- grillvogel 5y ago
  vaccines are supposed to have years of testing to prove they are truly safe in the long term. your own link says pfizer is trying to extend the emergency use authorization to apply to younger people, nothing about completing approvals. true FDA approval is still years away.
  - maxerickson 5y ago
    The headline is Pfizer and BioNTech Initiate Rolling Submission of Biologics License Application for U.S. FDA Approval of Their COVID 19 Vaccine Biologics License Application for U.S. FDA Approval is the final thing. The next step after that is safety monitoring of the fully licensed product. The 16 and over there is about the applicability of the resulting BLA.
thomashop 5y ago
Don't we need to vaccinnate kids to reach herd immunity? Sure it doesn't make sense when you look at young people in isolation but that is beside the point.
- antibuddy 5y ago
  The vaccines are not sterile, so they do not stop the spread either.
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    This statement makes no sense. The mRNA vaccines are sterile; there's no active virus or bacteria in them. It's also conclusively determined they reduce transmission. (The sterility of a vaccine has no impact on its ability to reduce transmission, anyways; they're not linked. Live-virus vaccines like the flu nasal spray vaccine can still prevent disease.)
    - valarauko 5y ago
      I think the comment was alluding to 'sterilizing immunity', rather than the aseptic nature of the vaccines themselves.
- rhino369 5y ago
  Not when you factor in immunity from recovered people. If we get to 60% of the total population plus 25% of the rest being immune from recovery, that is 70% total.
planb 5y ago
You did not understand the difference between systemic and individual risk the parent mentioned. Of course, 12+ year olds are not vaccinated for their own safety, but to supress infection chains that might reach someone more vulnerable. I don't see any insanity in this as testing HAS happened properly.
gspr 5y ago
> This becomes even more important because even the basic mechanism is not studied for vaccinations long-term at all. It is spouting shit like this that makes people call you an anti-vaxer. What the hell are you on about?
- antibuddy 5y ago
  There are no long-term studies for mRNA vaccines.
  - gspr 5y ago
    So what? What's the mechanism you're concerned about?
    - grillvogel 5y ago
      "I've been smoking cigarattes for the past year and nothing bad has happened to me, i guess they are perfectly healthy"
    - loveistheanswer 5y ago
      >What's the mechanism you're concerned about? What do you mean? We can't know what the long term side effects of drugs are until we have long term data. Even with long term data showing significant negative side effects of drugs, we often dont understand the "mechanism"
      - phaemon 5y ago
        > What do you mean? Apologies, don't mean to pick on you but wanted an example for a future comment. This maintains context worse than GPT-3
      - gspr 5y ago
        If the drug breaks down rapidly in the body, yes, we can indeed know that. Then there can be no mechanism by which it can have long term effects. That's what happens with the delivered mRNA.

maxerickson 5y ago

Pfizer is in the process of completing the normal licensing process: https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-detail/pfizer-and-biontech-initiate-rolling-submission-biologics https://www.pfizer.com/news/press-release/press-release-deta... What's the next hurdle after that for being 'properly' tested?

grillvogel 5y ago
vaccines are supposed to have years of testing to prove they are truly safe in the long term. your own link says pfizer is trying to extend the emergency use authorization to apply to younger people, nothing about completing approvals. true FDA approval is still years away.
- maxerickson 5y ago
  The headline is Pfizer and BioNTech Initiate Rolling Submission of Biologics License Application for U.S. FDA Approval of Their COVID 19 Vaccine Biologics License Application for U.S. FDA Approval is the final thing. The next step after that is safety monitoring of the fully licensed product. The 16 and over there is about the applicability of the resulting BLA.

thomashop 5y ago

Don't we need to vaccinnate kids to reach herd immunity? Sure it doesn't make sense when you look at young people in isolation but that is beside the point.

antibuddy 5y ago
The vaccines are not sterile, so they do not stop the spread either.
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  This statement makes no sense. The mRNA vaccines are sterile; there's no active virus or bacteria in them. It's also conclusively determined they reduce transmission. (The sterility of a vaccine has no impact on its ability to reduce transmission, anyways; they're not linked. Live-virus vaccines like the flu nasal spray vaccine can still prevent disease.)
  - valarauko 5y ago
    I think the comment was alluding to 'sterilizing immunity', rather than the aseptic nature of the vaccines themselves.
rhino369 5y ago
Not when you factor in immunity from recovered people. If we get to 60% of the total population plus 25% of the rest being immune from recovery, that is 70% total.

planb 5y ago

You did not understand the difference between systemic and individual risk the parent mentioned. Of course, 12+ year olds are not vaccinated for their own safety, but to supress infection chains that might reach someone more vulnerable. I don't see any insanity in this as testing HAS happened properly.

gspr 5y ago

> This becomes even more important because even the basic mechanism is not studied for vaccinations long-term at all. It is spouting shit like this that makes people call you an anti-vaxer. What the hell are you on about?

antibuddy 5y ago
There are no long-term studies for mRNA vaccines.
- gspr 5y ago
  So what? What's the mechanism you're concerned about?
  - grillvogel 5y ago
    "I've been smoking cigarattes for the past year and nothing bad has happened to me, i guess they are perfectly healthy"
  - loveistheanswer 5y ago
    >What's the mechanism you're concerned about? What do you mean? We can't know what the long term side effects of drugs are until we have long term data. Even with long term data showing significant negative side effects of drugs, we often dont understand the "mechanism"
    - phaemon 5y ago
      > What do you mean? Apologies, don't mean to pick on you but wanted an example for a future comment. This maintains context worse than GPT-3
    - gspr 5y ago
      If the drug breaks down rapidly in the body, yes, we can indeed know that. Then there can be no mechanism by which it can have long term effects. That's what happens with the delivered mRNA.