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Cities are requiring speed limiters on electric scooters and bikes, but I have never seen any serious suggestions from politicians that the same could and shoul

Cities are requiring speed limiters on electric scooters and bikes, but I have never seen any serious suggestions from politicians that the same could and should be done on cars, despite the huge gap in danger.

swader999 5y ago
I used to run my own hand built ebike so it didn't have any governor or limit on it. Was always safest when I could keep pace with cars. Otherwise they just try to pass and that's not great on residential streets.
- tonyedgecombe 5y ago
  The main problem I find with that is drivers don't expect you to be going so fast. They will pull out in front of you without thinking.
  - iso1210 5y ago
    Drivers tend not to see cyclists - pedel, ebike or motorbike.
    - medstrom 5y ago
      I always see (when driving) and feel seen (when cycling). This might depend on where you live.
    - wiredfool 5y ago
      There are specific steps to take to make sure that cars see you, and most of them involve moving around in the lane.
  - swader999 5y ago
    Yes and you have to be especially wary of cars turning across in front of you. Always paranoid and assuming they'll do the worst.
- wiredfool 5y ago
  My experience is: Drivers tend to assume bikes are traveling about 10mph, or stationary. They get really surprised when you’re going faster. Drivers assume that bikes are 2 dimensional, and don’t have a width. Bikes should be able to be squeezed into the space between any two lines on the pavement. Drivers assume that their car ends somewhere around the back of their head, and as long as they can’t see you forward, they’ve managed to pass you and can move back in. This is especially obnoxious when they’re towing a trailer. What you’ve built is effectively an underpowered motorcycle, with all the safety that they provide.
  - swader999 5y ago
    Yes one that I could also ride on bike paths and park wherever I want. I would typically own the lane if it wasn't safe to pass or if there was potential for the door prize from parked cars on the side.
ClumsyPilot 5y ago
That a good point, i never thought of this hypocracy
londons_explore 5y ago
Cars still have to abide by speed limits, which can be enforced because they have licenseplates. If ebikes had license plates, we could enforce speed limits on them the same way as cars, rather than a hard limit by design.
- sparsely 5y ago
  I think it's pretty widely acknowledged that speed limits are not effectively enforced on cars. And if they are, what is the cost to making the limitation (+10mph or whatever as required for safety) automatic?
  - dd_roger 5y ago
    > I think it's pretty widely acknowledged that speed limits are not effectively enforced on cars. No it's not, unless you have some study to back it up because it's not my experience. (edit: just to be clear, the spirit of this comment is not to dismiss anything that isn't backed by studies, sometimes simple observation of the world around us is enough to reach solid conclusions, but I disagree that speed limits aren't respected and enforced. Could depend on where you live as well.)
    - sparsely 5y ago
      First page of DDG found this: https://www.wired.com/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri/ https://www.wired.com/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri/ (from 2008) or this https://conversation.which.co.uk/motoring/breaking-speed-limits-safe-driving-admiral-car-insurance/ https://conversation.which.co.uk/motoring/breaking-speed-lim... it's from an insurer, but the % who admit to speeding is very high or this from the UK gov https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/915731/vehicle-speed-compliance-statistics-2019.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
- hellbannedguy 5y ago
  The last thing we need more fees coming out of our pockets. I bet politicians are already talking about it though? Fees/fines are the polite way of taxing. I forgot to pay by registration this year. I got the smog, and tags. Gov. Neusome was nice enough to give a two month grace period. I got another registration in the mail, and thought it was a mistake. My regulation is 148. The late fee was $69 dollars. That should be unserious? I never even notice how high DMV late fees are because I always paid on time. My point is we do not need to muck up a great electric movement with a bunch of laws that are backed up by high fees.
distant_hat 5y ago
I think the speed limits are more for the benefit of riders than for things they collide with.
altacc 5y ago
Whilst it's somewhat hypocritical there is some false equivalence there to consider. An ebike can still go beyond the engine cut-off speed and exceed the local speed limit, so would act differently to a speed limiter on a car, which would be more restrictive. So, for ebikes at least, these are different things. Also in some countries larger vehicles already require a speed limiter (although not cars) so the political will is there in some form. Part of the reasoning for the speed limiter seems to be linked to the absence of mandatory training & licensing for ebikes & scooters. By limiting the speed governments are aiming to limit the risk to both rider and others and that risk has a direct correlation to speed. A non-limited ebike is similar in many ways to a light petrol powered moped and so in much of Europe you can get non-limited ebikes but you need a light motorcycle license and wear a helmet, as you would riding a moped. So there's some equivalence in law there.
colechristensen 5y ago
Like for example in the EU where all cars sold after 2022 will be required to have speed limiters?
- nikonyrh 5y ago
  I think they are already limited, for example to 240 km/h.
Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago
Speed is also a poor proxy for safety. Lack of attention and aptitude is the real problem. Some people's problem is that they drive faster than they or their cars can physically handle, but they are relatively rare compared to those who are unsafe even below the speed limit. Things like texting, fixating on the spot directly in front of the car, and simply not caring about putting others in danger. They are also less likely to speed simply because they don't have the confidence for it. So speeding enforcement is a poor use of resources. What's really needed is some kind of driver screening to see if they have the mental and visual acuity, motor skills and discipline to drive at any speed. Intense scrutiny of new drivers is probably why western and northern Europe are the safest places to be on the road. With VR simulators and eye tracking this can even be done objectively and consistently at no risk to the public. Stare at the spot in front of the car? Miss an erratic cyclist in your field of view? Can't keep in your lane? Better get a bus pass. I expect a lot of politicians would balk at the idea since they know they themselves would fail. Also, a better alternative to speed limits is tiered licenses, just like they are for motorcycles. I've experimented with seeing how fast I can drive on the derestricted Autobahn, and found it takes a very different skill set and lots of practice to do well. Everything happens in split seconds, before you know it you're task saturated, falling behind the car, have angry Germans in diesel Passats behind you and no planned escape in the middle lane. If you want to drive a particular speed you have to demonstrate in the simulator that you can keep up at that speed, and do so consistently over time. So the people who do on-ramps and merge at 50 km/h should probably be capped at that speed anyway and stay on surface streets. Then you have one that lets you in on the right lane at truck driving speeds, and then another that lets you drive at whatever speed you please.
- oliwarner 5y ago
  Pushing the physical speed limitations of cars is not what kills cyclists and pedestrians. In many countries, those groups are excluded from high speed roads. These deaths predominantly happen around 30mph, at junctions and other road furniture. Edit: I've based that on UK experience, while TFA puts most US accidents on "arterial" roads, which can be 30-50mph. This doesn't change what I'm saying to you though, cyclists aren't dying because cars explode at 50mph.

swader999 5y ago

I used to run my own hand built ebike so it didn't have any governor or limit on it. Was always safest when I could keep pace with cars. Otherwise they just try to pass and that's not great on residential streets.

tonyedgecombe 5y ago
The main problem I find with that is drivers don't expect you to be going so fast. They will pull out in front of you without thinking.
- iso1210 5y ago
  Drivers tend not to see cyclists - pedel, ebike or motorbike.
  - medstrom 5y ago
    I always see (when driving) and feel seen (when cycling). This might depend on where you live.
  - wiredfool 5y ago
    There are specific steps to take to make sure that cars see you, and most of them involve moving around in the lane.
- swader999 5y ago
  Yes and you have to be especially wary of cars turning across in front of you. Always paranoid and assuming they'll do the worst.
wiredfool 5y ago
My experience is: Drivers tend to assume bikes are traveling about 10mph, or stationary. They get really surprised when you’re going faster. Drivers assume that bikes are 2 dimensional, and don’t have a width. Bikes should be able to be squeezed into the space between any two lines on the pavement. Drivers assume that their car ends somewhere around the back of their head, and as long as they can’t see you forward, they’ve managed to pass you and can move back in. This is especially obnoxious when they’re towing a trailer. What you’ve built is effectively an underpowered motorcycle, with all the safety that they provide.
- swader999 5y ago
  Yes one that I could also ride on bike paths and park wherever I want. I would typically own the lane if it wasn't safe to pass or if there was potential for the door prize from parked cars on the side.

ClumsyPilot 5y ago

That a good point, i never thought of this hypocracy

londons_explore 5y ago

Cars still have to abide by speed limits, which can be enforced because they have licenseplates. If ebikes had license plates, we could enforce speed limits on them the same way as cars, rather than a hard limit by design.

sparsely 5y ago
I think it's pretty widely acknowledged that speed limits are not effectively enforced on cars. And if they are, what is the cost to making the limitation (+10mph or whatever as required for safety) automatic?
- dd_roger 5y ago
  > I think it's pretty widely acknowledged that speed limits are not effectively enforced on cars. No it's not, unless you have some study to back it up because it's not my experience. (edit: just to be clear, the spirit of this comment is not to dismiss anything that isn't backed by studies, sometimes simple observation of the world around us is enough to reach solid conclusions, but I disagree that speed limits aren't respected and enforced. Could depend on where you live as well.)
  - sparsely 5y ago
    First page of DDG found this: https://www.wired.com/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri/ https://www.wired.com/2008/11/the-boy-who-cri/ (from 2008) or this https://conversation.which.co.uk/motoring/breaking-speed-limits-safe-driving-admiral-car-insurance/ https://conversation.which.co.uk/motoring/breaking-speed-lim... it's from an insurer, but the % who admit to speeding is very high or this from the UK gov https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/915731/vehicle-speed-compliance-statistics-2019.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/...
hellbannedguy 5y ago
The last thing we need more fees coming out of our pockets. I bet politicians are already talking about it though? Fees/fines are the polite way of taxing. I forgot to pay by registration this year. I got the smog, and tags. Gov. Neusome was nice enough to give a two month grace period. I got another registration in the mail, and thought it was a mistake. My regulation is 148. The late fee was $69 dollars. That should be unserious? I never even notice how high DMV late fees are because I always paid on time. My point is we do not need to muck up a great electric movement with a bunch of laws that are backed up by high fees.

distant_hat 5y ago

I think the speed limits are more for the benefit of riders than for things they collide with.

altacc 5y ago

Whilst it's somewhat hypocritical there is some false equivalence there to consider. An ebike can still go beyond the engine cut-off speed and exceed the local speed limit, so would act differently to a speed limiter on a car, which would be more restrictive. So, for ebikes at least, these are different things. Also in some countries larger vehicles already require a speed limiter (although not cars) so the political will is there in some form. Part of the reasoning for the speed limiter seems to be linked to the absence of mandatory training & licensing for ebikes & scooters. By limiting the speed governments are aiming to limit the risk to both rider and others and that risk has a direct correlation to speed. A non-limited ebike is similar in many ways to a light petrol powered moped and so in much of Europe you can get non-limited ebikes but you need a light motorcycle license and wear a helmet, as you would riding a moped. So there's some equivalence in law there.

colechristensen 5y ago

Like for example in the EU where all cars sold after 2022 will be required to have speed limiters?

nikonyrh 5y ago
I think they are already limited, for example to 240 km/h.

Tabular-Iceberg 5y ago

Speed is also a poor proxy for safety. Lack of attention and aptitude is the real problem. Some people's problem is that they drive faster than they or their cars can physically handle, but they are relatively rare compared to those who are unsafe even below the speed limit. Things like texting, fixating on the spot directly in front of the car, and simply not caring about putting others in danger. They are also less likely to speed simply because they don't have the confidence for it. So speeding enforcement is a poor use of resources. What's really needed is some kind of driver screening to see if they have the mental and visual acuity, motor skills and discipline to drive at any speed. Intense scrutiny of new drivers is probably why western and northern Europe are the safest places to be on the road. With VR simulators and eye tracking this can even be done objectively and consistently at no risk to the public. Stare at the spot in front of the car? Miss an erratic cyclist in your field of view? Can't keep in your lane? Better get a bus pass. I expect a lot of politicians would balk at the idea since they know they themselves would fail. Also, a better alternative to speed limits is tiered licenses, just like they are for motorcycles. I've experimented with seeing how fast I can drive on the derestricted Autobahn, and found it takes a very different skill set and lots of practice to do well. Everything happens in split seconds, before you know it you're task saturated, falling behind the car, have angry Germans in diesel Passats behind you and no planned escape in the middle lane. If you want to drive a particular speed you have to demonstrate in the simulator that you can keep up at that speed, and do so consistently over time. So the people who do on-ramps and merge at 50 km/h should probably be capped at that speed anyway and stay on surface streets. Then you have one that lets you in on the right lane at truck driving speeds, and then another that lets you drive at whatever speed you please.

oliwarner 5y ago
Pushing the physical speed limitations of cars is not what kills cyclists and pedestrians. In many countries, those groups are excluded from high speed roads. These deaths predominantly happen around 30mph, at junctions and other road furniture. Edit: I've based that on UK experience, while TFA puts most US accidents on "arterial" roads, which can be 30-50mph. This doesn't change what I'm saying to you though, cyclists aren't dying because cars explode at 50mph.