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Adapted from a comment I made in the wrong thread: It's hilarious that rasengan is complaining about Libera "fracturing the FOSS community".[0] For example, #

by Seirdy 5y ago

Adapted from a comment I made in the wrong thread: It's hilarious that rasengan is complaining about Libera "fracturing the FOSS community".[0] For example, #newsboat members decided to move by June 5th, and we've been deciding between OFTC and Libera. Then this happened: 20:05 --> freenodecom [freenode-placehol] (www.freenode.net) (~com@freenode/staff) has joined #newsboat 20:05 -- freenodecom has changed topic for #newsboat from "We intend to migrate off Freenode. What do you prefer: OFTC or Libera.chat? Details here: https://github.com/newsboat/newsboat/issues/1643" to "This channel has moved to ##newsboat. The topic is in violation of freenode policy: https://freenode.net/policies" 20:05 <@freenodecom> This channel has been reopened with respect to the communities and new users. The topic is in violation of freenode policy: https://freenode.net/policies 20:05 -- Mode #newsboat [+o freenodecom] by OperServ 20:05 -- Mode #newsboat [+impsf ##newsboat] by ChanServ 20:05 <@freenodecom> The new channel is ##newsboat 20:05 <-- freenodecom (~com@freenode/staff) has left #newsboat Great. Now none of us can speak on #newsboat, making coordination to switch much harder. New users might get confused and join the wrong channel operated by a hostile party. The community is more fractured now. To everyone with a freenode channel: whatever you do, do not mention "libera" in your channel topic. That's the trigger for this action. [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20210525231635/https://freenode.net/news/for-foss https://web.archive.org/web/20210525231635/https://freenode....

raverbashing 5y ago
Or, maybe, you know, pick one and move already, then discuss later if people prefer the other one. Indecisiveness and excess democracy are things that make "open-source" slower. Edit: you're all responding like the actual choice they made didn't result in a bad situation for the members
- TeMPOraL 5y ago
  Or, better still, pick one but create channels on both - the other one just to tell people where the primary channel is. Or even to carry discussion on both simultaneously, until you reach the decision. Do that to prevent a hostile party from doing it before you.
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    Agreed. It will be easier to see which one people prefers as well. (I mean, it's an IRC channel, the servers might diverge in features and reliability but there's usually not much difference)
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      > (I mean, it's an IRC channel, the servers might diverge in features and reliability but there's usually not much difference) You'd be surprised. This actually strengthens the point you're making elsewhere: people can, and will, debate such choices endlessly. It's because they care about the community, about making things better for themselves and for everyone. This is textbook bikeshedding - there's no ill intent, just scope insensitivity. Debating important issues and debating trivialities takes the same amount of effort, and expands to fill available time of participants. I'm not sure what the best solution is, but the one I know works is to put a time limit on such issues, to prevent them from consuming more attention and resources than they deserve. That is, if consensus can't be reached in a short time, a preset choice must be made by default. If you reach that point and get strong pushback, you take the other option.
      - raverbashing 5y ago
        Thanks for the constructive comment and for explaining my point better!
  - Seirdy 5y ago
    That's what happened during the decision-making process, but then one got shut down. Now new users joining #newsboat will be directed to ##newsboat, which is completely out of control of the #newsboat ops. They won't be directed to libera.chat.
- grayhatter 5y ago
  You're right, snap decisions are the best... don't bother to get input or even really consider your options. Just flip a coin and yolo it, right?
  - raverbashing 5y ago
    You're picking an IRC server, not your favourite kid. Bike shedding is real.
    - grayhatter 5y ago
      It's not bike shedding to make sure interested parties all get heard. My community didn't switch before this cluster fuck because we were waiting for someone who's important but only online for a weekend every few weeks or so. Just because you don't care, doesn't make it unimportant.
    - detaro 5y ago
      Because leaving X% of the channel that relies on Matrix bridges behind, rushing admins of bots etc, and making people feel like you didn't even give them a chance to say something about it are all great things for a community.
      - immibis 5y ago
        Because staying on a network where nobody has control of their own channels is great for a community.
        detaro 5y ago
        because you clearly knew that waiting for 2 weeks wouldn't be ok?
      - edwardkmett 5y ago
        This has been the major reason why #haskell didn't try to move more forcefully. We'd like to get some of the old logging bots moved over, etc. We have some number of users who connect from tor, from matrix, or from webchat that simply can't move right now. These are things being looked at from the libera.chat side, but that work isn't done. I very much value those users being able to continue to ask and get their questions answered. That said, we used to have like 3-4 server ops lurking in the channel, and 15-16 channel ops that were active on the server. We just don't any more. This makes me rather concerned from a spam perspective. On the other hand, there are < 80 people in the channel now, so perhaps spam is less of an issue now that we're a much smaller target.
neolog 5y ago
Self-censorship is the wrong response. Libera is the real Freenode community, just under a different name now.
- abstractbeliefs 5y ago
  Libera is run by the same staff as ran freenode for years, until Andrew evicted them last week. We care about foss and if foss projects want to move from freenode, we will support them. Anyone wanting to move their community/project can read how to do so here: https://libera.chat/chanreg#how-to-register-as-a-project https://libera.chat/chanreg#how-to-register-as-a-project Some background to the story: https://kline.sh/ https://kline.sh/
  - thinkingemote 5y ago
    What's to stop, in 10 years, what happened to Freenode happening to Libera? Is there something concrete in place, or is it on trust? On trust is what happened with freenode.
    - capableweb 5y ago
      Who runs Freenode and how it was managed was never really 100% clear, until now. On the other side, this is Libera: > Libera Chat is a Swedish nonprofit organisation, feel free to read our bylaws. The organisation is run entirely by volunteer staff who are the members of, and have equal voting power in, the organisation. Libera Chat’s purpose is to provide services such as a community platform for free open-source software and peer directed projects on a volunteer basis. You can see the bylaws here: https://libera.chat/bylaws https://libera.chat/bylaws So, as a common FOSS organization, Libera is governed by a non-profit instead of owned by a corporation. That step feels like a pretty good stopgap from enabling the same thing to happen again.
    - immibis 5y ago
      Well then the community moves somewhere else. Networks are cheap and interchangeable.
    - 5y ago
sampo 5y ago
> Now none of us can speak on #newsboat But now #newsboat has a pointer to ##newsboat, can you talk there?
rataata_jr 5y ago
Just mention base64 encoding lol.
tinus_hn 5y ago
At least the answer what to do should be clear now.

by Seirdy 5y ago

raverbashing 5y ago

Or, maybe, you know, pick one and move already, then discuss later if people prefer the other one. Indecisiveness and excess democracy are things that make "open-source" slower. Edit: you're all responding like the actual choice they made didn't result in a bad situation for the members

TeMPOraL 5y ago
Or, better still, pick one but create channels on both - the other one just to tell people where the primary channel is. Or even to carry discussion on both simultaneously, until you reach the decision. Do that to prevent a hostile party from doing it before you.
- raverbashing 5y ago
  Agreed. It will be easier to see which one people prefers as well. (I mean, it's an IRC channel, the servers might diverge in features and reliability but there's usually not much difference)
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    > (I mean, it's an IRC channel, the servers might diverge in features and reliability but there's usually not much difference) You'd be surprised. This actually strengthens the point you're making elsewhere: people can, and will, debate such choices endlessly. It's because they care about the community, about making things better for themselves and for everyone. This is textbook bikeshedding - there's no ill intent, just scope insensitivity. Debating important issues and debating trivialities takes the same amount of effort, and expands to fill available time of participants. I'm not sure what the best solution is, but the one I know works is to put a time limit on such issues, to prevent them from consuming more attention and resources than they deserve. That is, if consensus can't be reached in a short time, a preset choice must be made by default. If you reach that point and get strong pushback, you take the other option.
    - raverbashing 5y ago
      Thanks for the constructive comment and for explaining my point better!
- Seirdy 5y ago
  That's what happened during the decision-making process, but then one got shut down. Now new users joining #newsboat will be directed to ##newsboat, which is completely out of control of the #newsboat ops. They won't be directed to libera.chat.
grayhatter 5y ago
You're right, snap decisions are the best... don't bother to get input or even really consider your options. Just flip a coin and yolo it, right?
- raverbashing 5y ago
  You're picking an IRC server, not your favourite kid. Bike shedding is real.
  - grayhatter 5y ago
    It's not bike shedding to make sure interested parties all get heard. My community didn't switch before this cluster fuck because we were waiting for someone who's important but only online for a weekend every few weeks or so. Just because you don't care, doesn't make it unimportant.
  - detaro 5y ago
    Because leaving X% of the channel that relies on Matrix bridges behind, rushing admins of bots etc, and making people feel like you didn't even give them a chance to say something about it are all great things for a community.
    - immibis 5y ago
      Because staying on a network where nobody has control of their own channels is great for a community.
      - detaro 5y ago
        because you clearly knew that waiting for 2 weeks wouldn't be ok?
    - edwardkmett 5y ago
      This has been the major reason why #haskell didn't try to move more forcefully. We'd like to get some of the old logging bots moved over, etc. We have some number of users who connect from tor, from matrix, or from webchat that simply can't move right now. These are things being looked at from the libera.chat side, but that work isn't done. I very much value those users being able to continue to ask and get their questions answered. That said, we used to have like 3-4 server ops lurking in the channel, and 15-16 channel ops that were active on the server. We just don't any more. This makes me rather concerned from a spam perspective. On the other hand, there are < 80 people in the channel now, so perhaps spam is less of an issue now that we're a much smaller target.

neolog 5y ago

Self-censorship is the wrong response. Libera is the real Freenode community, just under a different name now.

abstractbeliefs 5y ago
Libera is run by the same staff as ran freenode for years, until Andrew evicted them last week. We care about foss and if foss projects want to move from freenode, we will support them. Anyone wanting to move their community/project can read how to do so here: https://libera.chat/chanreg#how-to-register-as-a-project https://libera.chat/chanreg#how-to-register-as-a-project Some background to the story: https://kline.sh/ https://kline.sh/
- thinkingemote 5y ago
  What's to stop, in 10 years, what happened to Freenode happening to Libera? Is there something concrete in place, or is it on trust? On trust is what happened with freenode.
  - capableweb 5y ago
    Who runs Freenode and how it was managed was never really 100% clear, until now. On the other side, this is Libera: > Libera Chat is a Swedish nonprofit organisation, feel free to read our bylaws. The organisation is run entirely by volunteer staff who are the members of, and have equal voting power in, the organisation. Libera Chat’s purpose is to provide services such as a community platform for free open-source software and peer directed projects on a volunteer basis. You can see the bylaws here: https://libera.chat/bylaws https://libera.chat/bylaws So, as a common FOSS organization, Libera is governed by a non-profit instead of owned by a corporation. That step feels like a pretty good stopgap from enabling the same thing to happen again.
  - immibis 5y ago
    Well then the community moves somewhere else. Networks are cheap and interchangeable.
  - 5y ago

sampo 5y ago

> Now none of us can speak on #newsboat But now #newsboat has a pointer to ##newsboat, can you talk there?

rataata_jr 5y ago

Just mention base64 encoding lol.

tinus_hn 5y ago

At least the answer what to do should be clear now.