3 ms·

So, thanks to cheap renewables, now, instead of a dying planet and an expensive BTC, we'll have a dying planet and a cheap BTC? Or will we be smart enough to c

So, thanks to cheap renewables, now, instead of a dying planet and an expensive BTC, we'll have a dying planet and a cheap BTC? Or will we be smart enough to chose to what use we put our energy?

shiftpgdn 5y ago
Bitcoin is .003% of global energy consumption. Ammonia generation is 20%.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  These sort of stats are useless without cost benefit analyses.
  - trophycase 5y ago
    Suppose that 0.00015% of all ammonia production goes to chemical weapons manufacturing. Boom, analysis complete.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    Do you think that making fertilizer that literally feeds the world is comparable to bitcoin?
- henearkr 5y ago
  Your comment is just whataboutism: You point out other ways to improve our energy consumption to avoid touching to your beloved crypto mining. While it could be both.
- iamgopal 5y ago
  Ok it’s in vicinity of 5 percent and not 20 percent, still quite large, And ammonia used for what ? Fertiliser?
- sien 5y ago
  From : https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fu... The emissions add up: Ammonia production consumes about 2% of the world's energy and generates 1% of its CO2. 2% not 20%
- henearkr 5y ago
  > Bitcoin currently consumes around 110 Terawatt Hours per year — 0.55% of global electricity production Source: https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actuall...
ktkoffroth 5y ago
Geez the anti-crypto circlejerk is real. I understand that it's incredibly wasteful and inefficient, but on a global scale I'd be willing to wager it's not even a drop in the proverbial bucket of energy consumption in comparison to other pointless and destructive endeavors, like consumerism for example. There are far more things we could be doing to reduce energy consumption in meaningful ways besides getting ride of POW/crypto.
samatman 5y ago
We do choose to what use we put our energy. The mechanism we use is markets: the energy is put for sale, and bought by those who have some use for it. High-carbon energy comes with an externality, CO2 emission, which doesn't depend on the use to which this energy is put. There is an obvious solution to this: make high-carbon energy expensive, and use the Pigovian tax to subsidize installation of more renewable energy. The coal plants can pay for their own obsolescence, win-win. Bitcoin is a complete distraction from this goal. If the price of energy doubled everywhere, overnight, and the market price of Bitcoin stayed perfectly level, Bitcoin's energy use would halve also. So if you make high-carbon energy expensive, and renewable energy cheap, Bitcoin miners will use the renewable stuff instead. Indeed, to a significant degree this is already what happens.
- henearkr 5y ago
  What worries me is if crypto miners and crypto buyers, whose belief in cryptocurrencies is closer to a religion, would progressively lock more and more of these renewables for mining. Now it's still 0.5% of the world's electricity production. What would prevent it for jumping to 30% in a few years? In your assumption, the bitcoin market price stays level. But it can double or triple quickly, and peak for short intervals of time, or stay high. All because of the belief of bitcoiners. That's all just a huge socio-psychological problem.
  - adrianN 5y ago
    Typically there are limited numbers of zealots for any given cause.
    - henearkr 5y ago
      If you mean that the price of the bitcoin is thus limited by a ceiling, hopefully not far from the current value, and if you are right, I would be reassured, for sure. Only, it's the complete opposite of the story told to us, in the internet media, about a bitcoin that will always eventually climb yet another order of magnitude...
  - 5y ago
varajelle 5y ago
Your comment let's suggest that you think that the price of bitcoin depends on the cost of energy used, while it it the opposite: the amount of energy used depends on the price of bitcoin. So with cheaper renewable, all other things staying equal, the price of bitcoin will not change, but the energy use will increase.

So, thanks to cheap renewables, now, instead of a dying planet and an expensive BTC, we'll have a dying planet and a cheap BTC? Or will we be smart enough to chose to what use we put our energy?

shiftpgdn 5y ago

Bitcoin is .003% of global energy consumption. Ammonia generation is 20%.

endisneigh 5y ago
These sort of stats are useless without cost benefit analyses.
- trophycase 5y ago
  Suppose that 0.00015% of all ammonia production goes to chemical weapons manufacturing. Boom, analysis complete.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Do you think that making fertilizer that literally feeds the world is comparable to bitcoin?
henearkr 5y ago
Your comment is just whataboutism: You point out other ways to improve our energy consumption to avoid touching to your beloved crypto mining. While it could be both.
iamgopal 5y ago
Ok it’s in vicinity of 5 percent and not 20 percent, still quite large, And ammonia used for what ? Fertiliser?
sien 5y ago
From : https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fuel-made-sun-air-and-water-could-power-globe-without-carbon https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2018/07/ammonia-renewable-fu... The emissions add up: Ammonia production consumes about 2% of the world's energy and generates 1% of its CO2. 2% not 20%
henearkr 5y ago
> Bitcoin currently consumes around 110 Terawatt Hours per year — 0.55% of global electricity production Source: https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actually-consume https://hbr.org/2021/05/how-much-energy-does-bitcoin-actuall...

ktkoffroth 5y ago

Geez the anti-crypto circlejerk is real. I understand that it's incredibly wasteful and inefficient, but on a global scale I'd be willing to wager it's not even a drop in the proverbial bucket of energy consumption in comparison to other pointless and destructive endeavors, like consumerism for example. There are far more things we could be doing to reduce energy consumption in meaningful ways besides getting ride of POW/crypto.

samatman 5y ago

We do choose to what use we put our energy. The mechanism we use is markets: the energy is put for sale, and bought by those who have some use for it. High-carbon energy comes with an externality, CO2 emission, which doesn't depend on the use to which this energy is put. There is an obvious solution to this: make high-carbon energy expensive, and use the Pigovian tax to subsidize installation of more renewable energy. The coal plants can pay for their own obsolescence, win-win. Bitcoin is a complete distraction from this goal. If the price of energy doubled everywhere, overnight, and the market price of Bitcoin stayed perfectly level, Bitcoin's energy use would halve also. So if you make high-carbon energy expensive, and renewable energy cheap, Bitcoin miners will use the renewable stuff instead. Indeed, to a significant degree this is already what happens.

henearkr 5y ago
What worries me is if crypto miners and crypto buyers, whose belief in cryptocurrencies is closer to a religion, would progressively lock more and more of these renewables for mining. Now it's still 0.5% of the world's electricity production. What would prevent it for jumping to 30% in a few years? In your assumption, the bitcoin market price stays level. But it can double or triple quickly, and peak for short intervals of time, or stay high. All because of the belief of bitcoiners. That's all just a huge socio-psychological problem.
- adrianN 5y ago
  Typically there are limited numbers of zealots for any given cause.
  - henearkr 5y ago
    If you mean that the price of the bitcoin is thus limited by a ceiling, hopefully not far from the current value, and if you are right, I would be reassured, for sure. Only, it's the complete opposite of the story told to us, in the internet media, about a bitcoin that will always eventually climb yet another order of magnitude...
- 5y ago

varajelle 5y ago

Your comment let's suggest that you think that the price of bitcoin depends on the cost of energy used, while it it the opposite: the amount of energy used depends on the price of bitcoin. So with cheaper renewable, all other things staying equal, the price of bitcoin will not change, but the energy use will increase.