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I think if you're talking about the acute win/loss of the Vietnam war, then absolutely the North Vietnamese won. If the USA really wanted to win the war then t

I think if you're talking about the acute win/loss of the Vietnam war, then absolutely the North Vietnamese won. If the USA really wanted to win the war then they could have done it outright in 1967. But that would have been very ugly. Not an option. Did the Vietnamese people win the war? No. They've been living in poverty for 50 years and most of them still are in 2021, 50 years later.

drzaiusapelord 5y ago
Maybe their soceity would have been more successful if it wasn't bombed to hell and back by the Americans then made a soft client state of the USSR and then boycotted by the West. If left to develop its communist government by itself, it could be like China today - a superpower that's going to overtake the USA by important measures. Lets stop pretending that years of war against a superpower didn't come at a cost for them and the US should have left them alone.
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
  Are the Vietnamese people winning in this scenario? Are the Vietnamese people winning right now?
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Are you asking if the vietnamese people are winning in the crazy scenario drzaiusapelord suggested where viet nam is a super power - i think the answer is an obvious yes. But that's an unrealistic scenario. Would they have been better off if france agreed to decolonize instead of trying to hold on to their failing colonial empire with force (leading to everything that came to follow)? Maybe we'll never know. But i don't think there's any particular reason to assume that if the south won they would be any better off. South Vietnam hardly seems like it was the most stable/well run of governments - they were into fixing elections and persacuting buddhists, etc. Hardly what i would call an ideal state.
- _-david-_ 5y ago
  Various countries which were "bombed to hell and back" are doing well now. Various Europe countries, Korea, Japan, etc
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Helps that it was in usa's geopolitical interest for these countries to be strong to counter communism (Marshall plan)
- knz_ 5y ago
  > If left to develop its communist government by itself, it could be like China today - a superpower that's going to overtake the USA by important measures. Ho Chi Mihm was a puppet of china. There was no 'developing on their own'. > Lets stop pretending that years of war against a superpower didn't come at a cost for them and the US should have left them alone. Yeah, letting Russia and China subjugate the world would have gone SO MUCH better. What good has it done for nicaragua, cuba, north korea, afghanistan or the many noname countries in Africa? The USSR left only poverty and death whereever they went.
  - YinLuck- 5y ago
    Imagine being an America. Confidently sprouting such nonsense. You can literally google what happened between China and Vietnam after the Vietnam War and disprove your entire narrative. Go eat a big mac and overdose on oxy
  - ClumsyPilot 5y ago
    Ah yes, Afganistan, where Operation Cyclone funelled weapons to mujahadeen, which they used indiscriminantly against civilians. What could possibly go wrong? And once USA took control of Afganistan, how has the situation improved?
  - anigbrowl 5y ago
    Ho Chi Mihm was a puppet of china. There was no 'developing on their own'. Vietnam is communist but they're not very friendly with China, nor have they been since about 1975; vietnam is certainly not a satellite of China. Starting in 1979 they fought a low-intensity border war with China that went on for over a decade, a fact you seem to be unaware of.
  - wrevock 5y ago
    Ehh no, we have history of thousands of years clashing with China so no we aren't that close to China. We might have some "co-operation" geographically and politically but the best depiction of our relationship is 2 guys shaking hands with knives on the other hand. Oh and if you do some digging you will know that HCM sent a few letters to Trumman asking for US's aid, we could have been ally 70 years earlier, but no, the US branded him as a commie and the rest is history. Btw, the first line of our Proclamation of Independence is pretty much a paraphrase of the US's Declaration of Independence, that's to show how much we wanted the US to be ally.
bawolff 5y ago
> Did the Vietnamese people win the war? No. They've been living in poverty for 50 years and most of them still are in 2021, 50 years later. Do "the people" ever win a war? Something like 600,000 - 2 million civilians died in that war. If you're implying that people would be better off ecconomically if the other side won, that seems highly speculative with no evidence to back it up.
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
  USA fought a very similar war in Korea 10 years prior. Would you rather live in North Korea or South Korea right now?
  - bawolff 5y ago
    Its hardly identical, much of N. Korea's current struggles have direct causes that are more recent than the war (massive sanctions), and even if it was, a sample size of 1 is meaningless.
- jollybean 5y ago
  S. Koreans are unambiguously 'better off' than their counterparts in the North. That's the closest comparable we have. If the US were to have 'stayed' in S. Vietnamese, much like they did in S. Korea, that S. Vietnam would look 'somewhat' like S. Korea, but not nearly as prosperous given their agrarian history etc.. But definitely better off.
worik 5y ago
10% of USA people live in poverty. 50 years on, still in poverty. Win or loose, live in poverty.
- VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
  Big difference between "USA poverty" and "Vietnam poverty". But you're right, it's poverty nontheless.
kumarvvr 5y ago
They may be living in poverty, but they are living in self-respect. They have problems, but who doesn't. Do you think only money matters? Such regressive thinking, that too about whole societies and nations. As if they are not human.
tuan 5y ago
Vietnam GDP historical data: https://tradingeconomics.com/vietnam/gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/vietnam/gdp From https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/vietnam/overview https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/vietnam/overview: "Vietnam’s development over the past 30 years has been remarkable. Economic and political reforms under Đổi Mới, launched in 1986, have spurred rapid economic growth, transforming what was then one of the world’s poorest nations into a lower middle-income country. Between 2002 and 2018, GDP per capita increased by 2.7 times, reaching over US$2,700 in 2019, and more than 45 million people were lifted out of poverty"

drzaiusapelord 5y ago

Maybe their soceity would have been more successful if it wasn't bombed to hell and back by the Americans then made a soft client state of the USSR and then boycotted by the West. If left to develop its communist government by itself, it could be like China today - a superpower that's going to overtake the USA by important measures. Lets stop pretending that years of war against a superpower didn't come at a cost for them and the US should have left them alone.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
Are the Vietnamese people winning in this scenario? Are the Vietnamese people winning right now?
- bawolff 5y ago
  Are you asking if the vietnamese people are winning in the crazy scenario drzaiusapelord suggested where viet nam is a super power - i think the answer is an obvious yes. But that's an unrealistic scenario. Would they have been better off if france agreed to decolonize instead of trying to hold on to their failing colonial empire with force (leading to everything that came to follow)? Maybe we'll never know. But i don't think there's any particular reason to assume that if the south won they would be any better off. South Vietnam hardly seems like it was the most stable/well run of governments - they were into fixing elections and persacuting buddhists, etc. Hardly what i would call an ideal state.
_-david-_ 5y ago
Various countries which were "bombed to hell and back" are doing well now. Various Europe countries, Korea, Japan, etc
- bawolff 5y ago
  Helps that it was in usa's geopolitical interest for these countries to be strong to counter communism (Marshall plan)
knz_ 5y ago
> If left to develop its communist government by itself, it could be like China today - a superpower that's going to overtake the USA by important measures. Ho Chi Mihm was a puppet of china. There was no 'developing on their own'. > Lets stop pretending that years of war against a superpower didn't come at a cost for them and the US should have left them alone. Yeah, letting Russia and China subjugate the world would have gone SO MUCH better. What good has it done for nicaragua, cuba, north korea, afghanistan or the many noname countries in Africa? The USSR left only poverty and death whereever they went.
- YinLuck- 5y ago
  Imagine being an America. Confidently sprouting such nonsense. You can literally google what happened between China and Vietnam after the Vietnam War and disprove your entire narrative. Go eat a big mac and overdose on oxy
- ClumsyPilot 5y ago
  Ah yes, Afganistan, where Operation Cyclone funelled weapons to mujahadeen, which they used indiscriminantly against civilians. What could possibly go wrong? And once USA took control of Afganistan, how has the situation improved?
- anigbrowl 5y ago
  Ho Chi Mihm was a puppet of china. There was no 'developing on their own'. Vietnam is communist but they're not very friendly with China, nor have they been since about 1975; vietnam is certainly not a satellite of China. Starting in 1979 they fought a low-intensity border war with China that went on for over a decade, a fact you seem to be unaware of.
- wrevock 5y ago
  Ehh no, we have history of thousands of years clashing with China so no we aren't that close to China. We might have some "co-operation" geographically and politically but the best depiction of our relationship is 2 guys shaking hands with knives on the other hand. Oh and if you do some digging you will know that HCM sent a few letters to Trumman asking for US's aid, we could have been ally 70 years earlier, but no, the US branded him as a commie and the rest is history. Btw, the first line of our Proclamation of Independence is pretty much a paraphrase of the US's Declaration of Independence, that's to show how much we wanted the US to be ally.

bawolff 5y ago

> Did the Vietnamese people win the war? No. They've been living in poverty for 50 years and most of them still are in 2021, 50 years later. Do "the people" ever win a war? Something like 600,000 - 2 million civilians died in that war. If you're implying that people would be better off ecconomically if the other side won, that seems highly speculative with no evidence to back it up.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
USA fought a very similar war in Korea 10 years prior. Would you rather live in North Korea or South Korea right now?
- bawolff 5y ago
  Its hardly identical, much of N. Korea's current struggles have direct causes that are more recent than the war (massive sanctions), and even if it was, a sample size of 1 is meaningless.
jollybean 5y ago
S. Koreans are unambiguously 'better off' than their counterparts in the North. That's the closest comparable we have. If the US were to have 'stayed' in S. Vietnamese, much like they did in S. Korea, that S. Vietnam would look 'somewhat' like S. Korea, but not nearly as prosperous given their agrarian history etc.. But definitely better off.

worik 5y ago

10% of USA people live in poverty. 50 years on, still in poverty. Win or loose, live in poverty.

VWWHFSfQ 5y ago
Big difference between "USA poverty" and "Vietnam poverty". But you're right, it's poverty nontheless.

kumarvvr 5y ago

They may be living in poverty, but they are living in self-respect. They have problems, but who doesn't. Do you think only money matters? Such regressive thinking, that too about whole societies and nations. As if they are not human.

tuan 5y ago

Vietnam GDP historical data: https://tradingeconomics.com/vietnam/gdp https://tradingeconomics.com/vietnam/gdp From https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/vietnam/overview https://www.worldbank.org/en/country/vietnam/overview: "Vietnam’s development over the past 30 years has been remarkable. Economic and political reforms under Đổi Mới, launched in 1986, have spurred rapid economic growth, transforming what was then one of the world’s poorest nations into a lower middle-income country. Between 2002 and 2018, GDP per capita increased by 2.7 times, reaching over US$2,700 in 2019, and more than 45 million people were lifted out of poverty"