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This is a disaster, and we must be deeply ashamed as species for it, but I think in many of us there is some consolation in the implicit thinking "ok, we are de

This is a disaster, and we must be deeply ashamed as species for it, but I think in many of us there is some consolation in the implicit thinking "ok, we are destroying our planet life, but there are other planets and surely there are many biodiversity pockets out there in the Universe". Or.. "ok, maybe we are transforming the Earth to a naked rock, but let's wait a couple of billion years and surely there will be another rich ecosystem as the one who made us". Now consider the following: we don't really know if that is true. We can be materialists, atheists, and post-copernicus evolutionists, but we don't have the confirmation there is life in other planet. Also, we are not really sure if the process can be repeated, we can guess it can be, but we don't have the confirmation. So maybe we are extinguishing all the biodiversity emerged through eons of evolution on the only planet in the entire Universe with life on it. Just imagine that as a possibility, because life in other planets/future is only a theoretical idea, not a known fact. We simply don't know, maybe we are burning the only chance for life and his richness in all the eternity. In any case, we need to change.

defterGoose 5y ago
Thank you for articulating this. I agree that anyone who doesnt feel deeply ashamed of this fact at this point in time has never spent time in actual nature; "outside" doesnt cut it. In addition, they are deluding themselves that "someone will come up with something", or are just incapable of truly internalizing the truth that (at least for the boomer generation) "we are fucking this up/have already fucked it up". Its a basic defense mechanism. I encourage anyone who has thought deeply and actually cares about these issues to read Jem Bendell's "Deep Adaptation" paper.
notdang 5y ago
What is wrong in an universe without life?
- javajosh 5y ago
  There's nothing wrong with a universe without life, just as there's nothing wrong with a world without life. Mars, for example, is without life (as far as we know). Does that mean there's something wrong with Mars? I don't think so, in the same way there's nothing "wrong" with the Sun because it doesn't support life. That said, Earth's biosphere is a unique system that has endured terrible degradation in the past; the fact that so-called "rational animals" would cause it, not even out of malice but sheer intellectual laziness and moral cowardice, seems to me to define a very clear test of our collective mettle as humans. Right now, we're failing, and accelerating the failure.
  - throw_m239339 5y ago
    > That said, Earth's biosphere is a unique system that has endured terrible degradation in the past; the fact that so-called "rational animals" would cause it, It's only on the brink of extinction that humanity will better itself. A trauma of WWII levels may have to happen before we really change our societies. I wish it wasn't the case, but our lifestyle is just not sustainable as of now.
- hinkley 5y ago
  There's literally nothing to talk about.
- EamonnMR 5y ago
  As a living organism, I consider a universe without life to be the worst possible situation.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    Why? If we're all gone then there will be no life to value life and thus no suffering. Are you saying life is inherently and objectively valuable? If so, how?
    - fsflover 5y ago
      The complexity (low entropy) is really something very special and rare in the Universe. I don't know what, but something extraordinary might come out of it, if it evolves further.
    - EamonnMR 5y ago
      I consider that axiomatic as a living organism.
thangalin 5y ago
> but let's wait a couple of billion years Without intervention, Earth will become uninhabitable to almost all life in ~500 million years. As the Sun ages, it expands; eventually, surface water will have evaporated, leaving a dead husk behind. Long before that, our descendants will likely have found hospitable planets around distant, slow-burning stars, upon which they'll have sown the seeds of Earthly life. > This is a disaster, and we must be deeply ashamed as species for it It is shameful; fossil fuels, ingenuity, and greed probably mixed this situation inevitable. What "Five Whys" would you ask and answer, seeking to understand the path we've trodden to disaster?
- hinkley 5y ago
  In the next 100 million years several stars will be within a 10th of a light year from us. If you get the delta-V right you won't even have to slow down the whole way on the other end. But if that's still a problem then you're taking a one-way trip on a worldship anyway.
- wang_li 5y ago
  The sun is slowly warming. In only 100 million years it will be too warm on earth for plants to perform photosynthesis and everything dies.
pdfernhout 5y ago
It is indeed possible there is no complex life elsewhere. Although, I tend to think there is, because single-celled life and also tardigrades are hardy and could potentially travel encased in rocks ejected from planets during impact events. And now we know from recent research that nuclear reactions can support pockets of life potentially for hundreds of millions of years via producing hydrogen. Statistically, it is just way more likely that life came here that way from out there instead of life originating on this random one planet. But in any case, you are right that we should be ashamed of short-term human greed and economic systems that are needlessly destroying so much life. And further, such ways of thought and action are also causing so much needless suffering of humans and other living creatures including by unaccounted for negative externalities like pollution. A system that encourages people to privatize gains and socialize costs and risks is not long for this world -- even ignoring the irony of scarcity-fearing fools misusing plenty-providing tools to create artificial scarcity. All that said, below is something I wrote in 1992, almost almost thirty years ago, and reposted about a dozen years ago: http://groups.google.com/group/openvirgle/msg/ac0ffaab1aa1c8ca http://groups.google.com/group/openvirgle/msg/ac0ffaab1aa1c8... =========== A letter from Gaia to humanity on the joy of expectation Don't cry for me. When I let you evolve I knew it might cost the rhino and the tiger. I knew the rain forests would be cut down. I knew the rivers would be poisoned. I knew the ocean would turn to filth. I knew it would cost most of the species that are me. What is the death of most of my species to me? It is only sleep. In ten million years I will have it all back again and more. This has happened many times already. Complex and fragile species will break along with the webs they are in. Robust and widespread species will persist along with simpler webs. In time these survivors will radiate to cover the globe in diversity again. Each time I come back in beauty like a bush pruned and regrown. Be happy for me. Over and over again I have tried to give birth to more Gaias. Time and time again I have failed. With you I have hope. I cannot tell you how happy I am. Your minds, spacecraft, biospheres, and computers give me new realms to evolve into. With your minds I evolve as ideas in inner space. With your technology I can evolve into self replicating habitats in outer space. Your computers and minds contain model Gaias I can talk to; they are my first children. Your space craft and biospheres are a step to spreading Gaias throughout the stars. Cry, yes. Cry for yourselves. I am sorry those alive now will not live to see the splendor to come from what you have started. I am sorry for all the suffering your species and others will endure. You who live now will remember the tiger and the rain forest and mourn for them and yourselves. You will know what was lost without ever knowing what will be gained. I too mourn for them and you. There is so much joy that awaits us. We must look up and forward. We must go on to a future - my future, our future. After eons of barrenness I am finally giving birth. Help me lest it all fall away and take eons more before I get this close again to having the children I always wanted. =========== The preceding is something I just scanned in from 1992, written while I was in the SUNY Stony Brook Ecology and Evolution PhD program (where I had gone to learn more towards simulating gardens and space habitats). I had learned there that it took about 10 million years to regenerate lots of biodiversity from a large asteroid impact event, and this had happened several times in Earth's history. [I had also learned earlier that the Earth's surface will likely be uninhabitable within a billion years or sooner due to the Sun's continuing expansion and increasing heat output.] The following is a related statement also just scanned in of what inspired it written at the same time. =========== If one accepted that modern industrial civilization has initiated a great die-off of species comparable to the one sixty-five million years ago, how should one feel about this? Is overwhelming sadness and anger the best emotional response? On the surface it may seem so. Apparently modern civilization and the accompanying pollution and deforestation are pulling apart a tapestry woven over billions of years. Anger at the short sighted and narrow values driving industry may seem well placed. Certainly feelings of joy and excitement would seem out of place. Here are a few thoughts that may affect one's feelings. High levels of biodiversity can be generated from very low ones in about ten million years. On the time scales of the earth this may not be a blink of an eye, but it is a short nap. To humans this may mean a great loss, but Gaia might barely notice. It has after all been only sixty-five million years since the last die off. Not all species will be affected equally. A simplification will occur where the more specialized creatures will be the most likely to go extinct. Complex food webs will either loose species to become simpler or they will be replaced entirely by new simpler webs. This will create opportunities for generalists to move into vacated niches. It will also produce more robust species and food webs. In the long term this may make the biosphere healthier in the same way pruning a bush makes it grow more. New forms of life existing as ideas are now living and will likely continue to expand. Language and culture and technology are possible with humanity's growth. These allow new patterns to be created and selected for, giving evolution a new canvas. Also possible are new combinations of ideas and life as philosophies evolve in combination with ecosystems. A process that may well lead to the extinction of 30 to 99 percent of all species has been initiated unintentionally. Conservation of biodiversity should be done if only for aesthetic and spiritual reasons. Anger and sadness should not overwhelm one and keep one from making the best of the inevitable.
EamonnMR 5y ago
It's been repeated on earth several times. That said, ocean life is still a shadow of it's Devonian reef glory, and land animals have never reached the dizzying heights of the Cretaceous again, and probably never will. And as far as we know, intelligent life only evolved once, and we don't have time to run the whole tape again start to finish if we get this wrong.

defterGoose 5y ago

Thank you for articulating this. I agree that anyone who doesnt feel deeply ashamed of this fact at this point in time has never spent time in actual nature; "outside" doesnt cut it. In addition, they are deluding themselves that "someone will come up with something", or are just incapable of truly internalizing the truth that (at least for the boomer generation) "we are fucking this up/have already fucked it up". Its a basic defense mechanism. I encourage anyone who has thought deeply and actually cares about these issues to read Jem Bendell's "Deep Adaptation" paper.

notdang 5y ago

What is wrong in an universe without life?

javajosh 5y ago
There's nothing wrong with a universe without life, just as there's nothing wrong with a world without life. Mars, for example, is without life (as far as we know). Does that mean there's something wrong with Mars? I don't think so, in the same way there's nothing "wrong" with the Sun because it doesn't support life. That said, Earth's biosphere is a unique system that has endured terrible degradation in the past; the fact that so-called "rational animals" would cause it, not even out of malice but sheer intellectual laziness and moral cowardice, seems to me to define a very clear test of our collective mettle as humans. Right now, we're failing, and accelerating the failure.
- throw_m239339 5y ago
  > That said, Earth's biosphere is a unique system that has endured terrible degradation in the past; the fact that so-called "rational animals" would cause it, It's only on the brink of extinction that humanity will better itself. A trauma of WWII levels may have to happen before we really change our societies. I wish it wasn't the case, but our lifestyle is just not sustainable as of now.
hinkley 5y ago
There's literally nothing to talk about.
EamonnMR 5y ago
As a living organism, I consider a universe without life to be the worst possible situation.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  Why? If we're all gone then there will be no life to value life and thus no suffering. Are you saying life is inherently and objectively valuable? If so, how?
  - fsflover 5y ago
    The complexity (low entropy) is really something very special and rare in the Universe. I don't know what, but something extraordinary might come out of it, if it evolves further.
  - EamonnMR 5y ago
    I consider that axiomatic as a living organism.

thangalin 5y ago

> but let's wait a couple of billion years Without intervention, Earth will become uninhabitable to almost all life in ~500 million years. As the Sun ages, it expands; eventually, surface water will have evaporated, leaving a dead husk behind. Long before that, our descendants will likely have found hospitable planets around distant, slow-burning stars, upon which they'll have sown the seeds of Earthly life. > This is a disaster, and we must be deeply ashamed as species for it It is shameful; fossil fuels, ingenuity, and greed probably mixed this situation inevitable. What "Five Whys" would you ask and answer, seeking to understand the path we've trodden to disaster?

hinkley 5y ago
In the next 100 million years several stars will be within a 10th of a light year from us. If you get the delta-V right you won't even have to slow down the whole way on the other end. But if that's still a problem then you're taking a one-way trip on a worldship anyway.
wang_li 5y ago
The sun is slowly warming. In only 100 million years it will be too warm on earth for plants to perform photosynthesis and everything dies.

pdfernhout 5y ago

It is indeed possible there is no complex life elsewhere. Although, I tend to think there is, because single-celled life and also tardigrades are hardy and could potentially travel encased in rocks ejected from planets during impact events. And now we know from recent research that nuclear reactions can support pockets of life potentially for hundreds of millions of years via producing hydrogen. Statistically, it is just way more likely that life came here that way from out there instead of life originating on this random one planet. But in any case, you are right that we should be ashamed of short-term human greed and economic systems that are needlessly destroying so much life. And further, such ways of thought and action are also causing so much needless suffering of humans and other living creatures including by unaccounted for negative externalities like pollution. A system that encourages people to privatize gains and socialize costs and risks is not long for this world -- even ignoring the irony of scarcity-fearing fools misusing plenty-providing tools to create artificial scarcity. All that said, below is something I wrote in 1992, almost almost thirty years ago, and reposted about a dozen years ago: http://groups.google.com/group/openvirgle/msg/ac0ffaab1aa1c8ca http://groups.google.com/group/openvirgle/msg/ac0ffaab1aa1c8... =========== A letter from Gaia to humanity on the joy of expectation Don't cry for me. When I let you evolve I knew it might cost the rhino and the tiger. I knew the rain forests would be cut down. I knew the rivers would be poisoned. I knew the ocean would turn to filth. I knew it would cost most of the species that are me. What is the death of most of my species to me? It is only sleep. In ten million years I will have it all back again and more. This has happened many times already. Complex and fragile species will break along with the webs they are in. Robust and widespread species will persist along with simpler webs. In time these survivors will radiate to cover the globe in diversity again. Each time I come back in beauty like a bush pruned and regrown. Be happy for me. Over and over again I have tried to give birth to more Gaias. Time and time again I have failed. With you I have hope. I cannot tell you how happy I am. Your minds, spacecraft, biospheres, and computers give me new realms to evolve into. With your minds I evolve as ideas in inner space. With your technology I can evolve into self replicating habitats in outer space. Your computers and minds contain model Gaias I can talk to; they are my first children. Your space craft and biospheres are a step to spreading Gaias throughout the stars. Cry, yes. Cry for yourselves. I am sorry those alive now will not live to see the splendor to come from what you have started. I am sorry for all the suffering your species and others will endure. You who live now will remember the tiger and the rain forest and mourn for them and yourselves. You will know what was lost without ever knowing what will be gained. I too mourn for them and you. There is so much joy that awaits us. We must look up and forward. We must go on to a future - my future, our future. After eons of barrenness I am finally giving birth. Help me lest it all fall away and take eons more before I get this close again to having the children I always wanted. =========== The preceding is something I just scanned in from 1992, written while I was in the SUNY Stony Brook Ecology and Evolution PhD program (where I had gone to learn more towards simulating gardens and space habitats). I had learned there that it took about 10 million years to regenerate lots of biodiversity from a large asteroid impact event, and this had happened several times in Earth's history. [I had also learned earlier that the Earth's surface will likely be uninhabitable within a billion years or sooner due to the Sun's continuing expansion and increasing heat output.] The following is a related statement also just scanned in of what inspired it written at the same time. =========== If one accepted that modern industrial civilization has initiated a great die-off of species comparable to the one sixty-five million years ago, how should one feel about this? Is overwhelming sadness and anger the best emotional response? On the surface it may seem so. Apparently modern civilization and the accompanying pollution and deforestation are pulling apart a tapestry woven over billions of years. Anger at the short sighted and narrow values driving industry may seem well placed. Certainly feelings of joy and excitement would seem out of place. Here are a few thoughts that may affect one's feelings. High levels of biodiversity can be generated from very low ones in about ten million years. On the time scales of the earth this may not be a blink of an eye, but it is a short nap. To humans this may mean a great loss, but Gaia might barely notice. It has after all been only sixty-five million years since the last die off. Not all species will be affected equally. A simplification will occur where the more specialized creatures will be the most likely to go extinct. Complex food webs will either loose species to become simpler or they will be replaced entirely by new simpler webs. This will create opportunities for generalists to move into vacated niches. It will also produce more robust species and food webs. In the long term this may make the biosphere healthier in the same way pruning a bush makes it grow more. New forms of life existing as ideas are now living and will likely continue to expand. Language and culture and technology are possible with humanity's growth. These allow new patterns to be created and selected for, giving evolution a new canvas. Also possible are new combinations of ideas and life as philosophies evolve in combination with ecosystems. A process that may well lead to the extinction of 30 to 99 percent of all species has been initiated unintentionally. Conservation of biodiversity should be done if only for aesthetic and spiritual reasons. Anger and sadness should not overwhelm one and keep one from making the best of the inevitable.

EamonnMR 5y ago

It's been repeated on earth several times. That said, ocean life is still a shadow of it's Devonian reef glory, and land animals have never reached the dizzying heights of the Cretaceous again, and probably never will. And as far as we know, intelligent life only evolved once, and we don't have time to run the whole tape again start to finish if we get this wrong.