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> Come on, how much influence do you think the USA carries in Syria? Short of military intervention what do you expect? For the USA to promise to provide logs

by wnight 15y ago

> Come on, how much influence do you think the USA carries in Syria? Short of military intervention what do you expect? For the USA to promise to provide logs from their worldwide wiretapping to an international war-crimes tribunal. That, combined with records from within the country, would be enough to prove the criminality of, and thus remove the cloak of legitimacy from, abusive leaders. Once the leader was identified as a criminal loyalist troops can defect without bloodshed, instead of fighting the people as their oaths would otherwise require. A consistent and strong American voice presenting the facts would change everything, even if the enforcement was left to others. At least the legitimacy of the rebels would be clear and they'd be able to get support.

diogenescynic 15y ago
|For the USA to promise to provide logs from their worldwide wiretapping to an international war-crimes tribunal. Comical. You think the USA is wiretapping all phones everywhere? How does this work? How has this massive conspiracy not been exposed? You missed my point and misunderstood my question. What do you expect the US to do in Syria? We don't hold any leverage there. We're already militarily over-extended. Politically we have no appetite for another war with another Muslim country. |A consistent and strong American voice presenting the facts would change everything, even if the enforcement was left to others. At least the legitimacy of the rebels would be clear and they'd be able to get support. Done and done as GHFigs points out: "In a statement, President Barack Obama strongly condemned "the abhorrent violence" committed by the Syrian government. "I call upon the Syrian authorities to refrain from any further violence against peaceful protestors," said President Obama. "Furthermore, the arbitrary arrests, detention and torture of prisoners that has been reported must end now, and the free flow of information must be permitted so that there can be independent verification of events on the ground." http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Freedom-119951569.html http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Fr...
- wnight 15y ago
  > Comical. You think the USA is wiretapping all phones everywhere? How does this work? How has this massive conspiracy not been exposed? Not all, everywhere. Just most, most everywhere. And it has been exposed, and been lost under Britney's sex scandals and such. Domestic wiretapping was exposed in 2003 or so. Massive signal-gathering was exposed in the 'room641' case. PBS Frontline did a show about it. There was a lawsuit against it until the FISA was used to quash it. The US government is a member of the ECHELON program, a sat-call sniffing program, and has been for 20+ years. Leaks show the USA has access to many foreign telephone networks (Pakistan, etc) and can snoop on most cellular networks. And that's just some of what we know about. With the reciprocation of a few allies the USA has access to probably 90% of the digital communication outside of China and a few other countries. > You missed my point and misunderstood my question. No, I did not. Though obviously you missed my reply. > What do you expect the US to do in Syria? We don't hold any leverage there. First, stop funding or participating in abuses there. Second, acknowledge past and present abuses, and offer a world court use of its surveillance to identify as many criminals in the government as possible. Enable those who do have leverage to point to specific events in dealing with Syria, and make it easier for the oppressed to get help. > Politically we have no appetite for another war with another Muslim country. Politically there was no will for the other ones. That's why the government lied about the reasons. > Done and done as GHFigs points out: President Barack Obama strongly condemned [...] Soft and useless. Unless the USA acknowledges its crimes - for instance delivering prisoners to Syria for torture, they can't push too hard for fear of the backlash. Offer Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld to the Iraqis as the start of an apology for the war and you might start to seem serious. The USA has the ability (through electronic surveillance and local intel assets) to specifically identify many of the crimes committed, the army/police officer who killed the civilian, the officer who ordered it, a recording of the order being sent, who authorized it, etc. Even spotty records would help collaborate local reports.
  - diogenescynic 15y ago
    You still didn't answer the question. | Not all, everywhere. Just most, most everywhere. Did Batman build it? This is hilarious, but also a waste of my time. As anamax says: while it's clear that America is far from perfect, it's unclear who, if anyone, is anywhere near as close. Suggestions? (Note - the answer has to have significant capacity. Otherwise I'll nominate some random church group in Texas. Come to think of it, random US church groups do more good than most countries.) Until you've got something better, the appropriate response is "thank you".

by wnight 15y ago

diogenescynic 15y ago

|For the USA to promise to provide logs from their worldwide wiretapping to an international war-crimes tribunal. Comical. You think the USA is wiretapping all phones everywhere? How does this work? How has this massive conspiracy not been exposed? You missed my point and misunderstood my question. What do you expect the US to do in Syria? We don't hold any leverage there. We're already militarily over-extended. Politically we have no appetite for another war with another Muslim country. |A consistent and strong American voice presenting the facts would change everything, even if the enforcement was left to others. At least the legitimacy of the rebels would be clear and they'd be able to get support. Done and done as GHFigs points out: "In a statement, President Barack Obama strongly condemned "the abhorrent violence" committed by the Syrian government. "I call upon the Syrian authorities to refrain from any further violence against peaceful protestors," said President Obama. "Furthermore, the arbitrary arrests, detention and torture of prisoners that has been reported must end now, and the free flow of information must be permitted so that there can be independent verification of events on the ground." http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Freedom-119951569.html http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Fr...

wnight 15y ago
> Comical. You think the USA is wiretapping all phones everywhere? How does this work? How has this massive conspiracy not been exposed? Not all, everywhere. Just most, most everywhere. And it has been exposed, and been lost under Britney's sex scandals and such. Domestic wiretapping was exposed in 2003 or so. Massive signal-gathering was exposed in the 'room641' case. PBS Frontline did a show about it. There was a lawsuit against it until the FISA was used to quash it. The US government is a member of the ECHELON program, a sat-call sniffing program, and has been for 20+ years. Leaks show the USA has access to many foreign telephone networks (Pakistan, etc) and can snoop on most cellular networks. And that's just some of what we know about. With the reciprocation of a few allies the USA has access to probably 90% of the digital communication outside of China and a few other countries. > You missed my point and misunderstood my question. No, I did not. Though obviously you missed my reply. > What do you expect the US to do in Syria? We don't hold any leverage there. First, stop funding or participating in abuses there. Second, acknowledge past and present abuses, and offer a world court use of its surveillance to identify as many criminals in the government as possible. Enable those who do have leverage to point to specific events in dealing with Syria, and make it easier for the oppressed to get help. > Politically we have no appetite for another war with another Muslim country. Politically there was no will for the other ones. That's why the government lied about the reasons. > Done and done as GHFigs points out: President Barack Obama strongly condemned [...] Soft and useless. Unless the USA acknowledges its crimes - for instance delivering prisoners to Syria for torture, they can't push too hard for fear of the backlash. Offer Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld to the Iraqis as the start of an apology for the war and you might start to seem serious. The USA has the ability (through electronic surveillance and local intel assets) to specifically identify many of the crimes committed, the army/police officer who killed the civilian, the officer who ordered it, a recording of the order being sent, who authorized it, etc. Even spotty records would help collaborate local reports.
- diogenescynic 15y ago
  You still didn't answer the question. | Not all, everywhere. Just most, most everywhere. Did Batman build it? This is hilarious, but also a waste of my time. As anamax says: while it's clear that America is far from perfect, it's unclear who, if anyone, is anywhere near as close. Suggestions? (Note - the answer has to have significant capacity. Otherwise I'll nominate some random church group in Texas. Come to think of it, random US church groups do more good than most countries.) Until you've got something better, the appropriate response is "thank you".