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I think it's worth pointing out that at least for EV batteries, this is a trade-off. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries don't contain cobalt or nickel. We

by elihu 5y ago

I think it's worth pointing out that at least for EV batteries, this is a trade-off. Lithium iron phosphate (LFP) batteries don't contain cobalt or nickel. We could be building cars with LFP cells, they just would be heavier and/or have shorter range. LFP is getting better. I think recent cells tend to be in the 150 Wh/kg ballpark, which isn't bad. In the short term I expect we'll probably see LFP in trucks and busses and low and medium-end EVs. Or maybe some new battery technology will come along and the whole trade-off will be moot. (I think Tesla is already using or planning to use LFP cells from CATL in some of their model 3s. I'm not sure if that's just for the China market or if they're going to use LFP for US models.)

Baeocystin 5y ago
FWIW, I use LFP batteries for my motorcycles and hobbyist needs. Their durability is spectacular, and it is very convenient that they can match the charging voltages for 12V automotive lead-acid systems without any kind of expensive interface. Of course, this is completely different than using them for large-scale battery packs. Just pointing out that they are already in use in specialty niches today.
- elihu 5y ago
  I'm using LFP cells in an EV conversion I'm working on. I could have gotten better range by using used Tesla modules, but then I would have had to deal with liquid cooling, and the modules were an awkward size that didn't really fit conveniently where I wanted to put them. Plus LFP cells are a lot harder to accidentally catch on fire.
baybal2 5y ago
175Wh/kg cells were on the market for a few years, and I myself held those in my hands. There were many claims of LFP at above 200Wh/kg (which is already better than commodity NCM,) but I never seen those with my own eyes.
Tade0 5y ago
> I think recent cells tend to be in the 150 Wh/kg ballpark, which isn't bad. Even better: https://insideevs.com/news/481770/guoxuan-210-whkg-lfp-battery-cells/ https://insideevs.com/news/481770/guoxuan-210-whkg-lfp-batte... Those sub $100/kWh cells that made the news a while ago are were all LFP.
- elihu 5y ago
  Wow, that's awesome. (I hope political and business leaders in the U.S. and Europe see this and interpret it as "uh oh, we need to get our act together on LFP manufacturing before Chinese companies own the whole market" sort of a situation. I think in the U.S. we're too hyper-fixated on making luxury supercars. If we want EVs to eventually replace almost all gas vehicles, that's going to mean figuring out how to make them without using significant amounts of expensive and rare minerals. New technologies may come along, but for now that means using LFP cells.)

by elihu 5y ago

Baeocystin 5y ago

FWIW, I use LFP batteries for my motorcycles and hobbyist needs. Their durability is spectacular, and it is very convenient that they can match the charging voltages for 12V automotive lead-acid systems without any kind of expensive interface. Of course, this is completely different than using them for large-scale battery packs. Just pointing out that they are already in use in specialty niches today.

elihu 5y ago
I'm using LFP cells in an EV conversion I'm working on. I could have gotten better range by using used Tesla modules, but then I would have had to deal with liquid cooling, and the modules were an awkward size that didn't really fit conveniently where I wanted to put them. Plus LFP cells are a lot harder to accidentally catch on fire.

baybal2 5y ago

175Wh/kg cells were on the market for a few years, and I myself held those in my hands. There were many claims of LFP at above 200Wh/kg (which is already better than commodity NCM,) but I never seen those with my own eyes.

Tade0 5y ago

> I think recent cells tend to be in the 150 Wh/kg ballpark, which isn't bad. Even better: https://insideevs.com/news/481770/guoxuan-210-whkg-lfp-battery-cells/ https://insideevs.com/news/481770/guoxuan-210-whkg-lfp-batte... Those sub $100/kWh cells that made the news a while ago are were all LFP.

elihu 5y ago
Wow, that's awesome. (I hope political and business leaders in the U.S. and Europe see this and interpret it as "uh oh, we need to get our act together on LFP manufacturing before Chinese companies own the whole market" sort of a situation. I think in the U.S. we're too hyper-fixated on making luxury supercars. If we want EVs to eventually replace almost all gas vehicles, that's going to mean figuring out how to make them without using significant amounts of expensive and rare minerals. New technologies may come along, but for now that means using LFP cells.)