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> “How do you report someone who has done something, but hasn’t done something to you specifically?" Rather "how do you report someone that might possibly do s

> “How do you report someone who has done something, but hasn’t done something to you specifically?" Rather "how do you report someone that might possibly do something in the future, because he said mean things in a book a few years ago so obviously he's evil. The answer is: you don't. If he mistreats women or anyone else at work then fire him. If he doesn't, don't. You can even have a policy against employees saying things on twitter, and fire him if he breaks that. But you can't fire people because you think they probably have the wrong opinions based on things they said 5 years ago, that's Soviet level repression.

Traster 5y ago
I think report is the wrong word here, I think it's more about expressing concern about something rather than 'report'. You don't need to mistreat someone for them to feel uncomfortable if you've published a book mistreating people before. The precedent is enough - since obviously, anyone who has read the book will be thinking "that's what he's thinking about me right now". I think Martinez made a mistake, he thought he could be Brett Easton Ellis and then go and work in a large corporation. The truth is that even if he doesn't identify with the character he portrayed in the book (which he probably does but not to the extent his accusers think) it doesn't matter - because he literally wrote a book about how identifies as that person, and at that point the trust he broke "as character" has genuinely been broken in the eyes of his future colleagues.
birdyrooster 5y ago
Martinez made the mistake of going full TJ Miller, you never go full TJ Miller. There are costs for mistakes. The people in the club don't want him in and they make the rules. Unlike Soviets, Apple isn't the state and Martinez can go elsewhere. No one forced Martinez to pen the book. There are all sorts of books you can write that will cause a negative reputation to precede you. Your reputation has consequences! Imagine that!
zibzab 5y ago
Here the deal: It's scary to know what is going on in some poples head. You see their crazy dark thoughts and you just can't ever trust them anymore. You don't want to be alone in a room with the guy, because he obviously has some serious issues. Can you see how that affects other people's ability to do their job?
- Grustaf 5y ago
  Well perhaps, but I believe in personal responsibility. I'm sure most people have much darker thoughts than "most Bay Area women are soft", I definitely do. And I'm sure a number of people have had dark thoughts about me, my gender, my ethnicity, my appearance or whatever. But that is expected, it's part of living in a society, the unspoken rule is that everyone thinks these thoughts but you treat people as if you didn't. For example, I wouldn't have any problem working alongside a rabid feminist who a few years earlier had written some shocking things about how men are idiots, as long as she's polite and fair to me.
microtherion 5y ago
The hiring was a massive mistake even if you discount the person's attitude toward his prospective co-workers: He had very publicly ridiculed user privacy, which is one of the core defining values that Apple purports to uphold. He had very publicly aired all sorts of dirty laundry about previous employers, which was virtually guaranteed to happen eventually after some period of employment at Apple, and which is something Apple particularly hates. So it's entirely beyond me how anybody thought he was a good fit at Apple. That said, once hired, I think he's owed some monetary compensation for steps he took in reliance on the new job (at least morally, and quite possibly even legally, even in an at-will state).
PopsiclePete 5y ago
>But you can't fire people because you think they probably have the wrong opinions based on things they said 5 years ago, that's Soviet level repression. "Soviet level repression" would be sending Mr Martinez to a forced labor camp; maybe his relatives disappear, that sort of thing. If I find out that a coworker of mine attended a White Power rally a few years ago, or stormed the Capitol this January, you bet I'm bringing it up to my manager in a "it's either me or them" conversation. And I won't be the only one on my team. You may be cool working with all manner of assholes, doesn't mean other people should be.
- drewcoo 5y ago
  Which group is the assholes? The one who stormed the capitol or the ones who go to their manager about what someone does completely separate from work? Or the ones who insist on capitalizing "White Power" sans quotes?
- david38 5y ago
  You are free to leave. It used to be you were innocent until proven guilty. Attending a white power rally isn’t a crime in most places (freedom of assembly). Assaulting law enforcement and damaging the Capitol is. If you have evidence, report it to law enforcement. If the person does nothing while at work, there shouldn’t be a problem. You are not their judge. This is precisely why we have around privacy, what your company can ask you, etc. You can save your boss the time and quit. You can save even more time by asking for the full background of every coworker of yours and determine if they live up to your standards. Better yet, make your own company comprised of only people who meet your definition of acceptable people based on their political and social opinions that they don’t even share at work. Be careful though, you’re likely to get sued for violating employment laws.
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    The problem isn't crime, but moral credibility. The justice system is not for moral credibility, it is there for moral determination. Even the accusation of sexual abuse is extremely chilling for those who work with children — because it strikes at credibility, at whether people feel you are safe around kids. Would you feel that a pediatrician or teacher accused of sexual misconduct is safe around your children? Or rather, are you surprised that many people would say f-ing no? Note that being accused is not a crime, and it's an even lesser standard than some old Tweet, because at least that's a written record. But mere accusation can destroy credibility, especially when it has to do with sex. Now if you were a black man and your boss attended a white power rally, are you seriously going to say there isn't a F'ing Interesting Story of Moral Credibility going on here? If that employee ever sues for workplace discrimination, do people think that a history of white power rallies shouldn't come up?

Traster 5y ago

I think report is the wrong word here, I think it's more about expressing concern about something rather than 'report'. You don't need to mistreat someone for them to feel uncomfortable if you've published a book mistreating people before. The precedent is enough - since obviously, anyone who has read the book will be thinking "that's what he's thinking about me right now". I think Martinez made a mistake, he thought he could be Brett Easton Ellis and then go and work in a large corporation. The truth is that even if he doesn't identify with the character he portrayed in the book (which he probably does but not to the extent his accusers think) it doesn't matter - because he literally wrote a book about how identifies as that person, and at that point the trust he broke "as character" has genuinely been broken in the eyes of his future colleagues.

birdyrooster 5y ago

Martinez made the mistake of going full TJ Miller, you never go full TJ Miller. There are costs for mistakes. The people in the club don't want him in and they make the rules. Unlike Soviets, Apple isn't the state and Martinez can go elsewhere. No one forced Martinez to pen the book. There are all sorts of books you can write that will cause a negative reputation to precede you. Your reputation has consequences! Imagine that!

zibzab 5y ago

Here the deal: It's scary to know what is going on in some poples head. You see their crazy dark thoughts and you just can't ever trust them anymore. You don't want to be alone in a room with the guy, because he obviously has some serious issues. Can you see how that affects other people's ability to do their job?

Grustaf 5y ago
Well perhaps, but I believe in personal responsibility. I'm sure most people have much darker thoughts than "most Bay Area women are soft", I definitely do. And I'm sure a number of people have had dark thoughts about me, my gender, my ethnicity, my appearance or whatever. But that is expected, it's part of living in a society, the unspoken rule is that everyone thinks these thoughts but you treat people as if you didn't. For example, I wouldn't have any problem working alongside a rabid feminist who a few years earlier had written some shocking things about how men are idiots, as long as she's polite and fair to me.

microtherion 5y ago

The hiring was a massive mistake even if you discount the person's attitude toward his prospective co-workers: He had very publicly ridiculed user privacy, which is one of the core defining values that Apple purports to uphold. He had very publicly aired all sorts of dirty laundry about previous employers, which was virtually guaranteed to happen eventually after some period of employment at Apple, and which is something Apple particularly hates. So it's entirely beyond me how anybody thought he was a good fit at Apple. That said, once hired, I think he's owed some monetary compensation for steps he took in reliance on the new job (at least morally, and quite possibly even legally, even in an at-will state).

PopsiclePete 5y ago

>But you can't fire people because you think they probably have the wrong opinions based on things they said 5 years ago, that's Soviet level repression. "Soviet level repression" would be sending Mr Martinez to a forced labor camp; maybe his relatives disappear, that sort of thing. If I find out that a coworker of mine attended a White Power rally a few years ago, or stormed the Capitol this January, you bet I'm bringing it up to my manager in a "it's either me or them" conversation. And I won't be the only one on my team. You may be cool working with all manner of assholes, doesn't mean other people should be.

drewcoo 5y ago
Which group is the assholes? The one who stormed the capitol or the ones who go to their manager about what someone does completely separate from work? Or the ones who insist on capitalizing "White Power" sans quotes?
david38 5y ago
You are free to leave. It used to be you were innocent until proven guilty. Attending a white power rally isn’t a crime in most places (freedom of assembly). Assaulting law enforcement and damaging the Capitol is. If you have evidence, report it to law enforcement. If the person does nothing while at work, there shouldn’t be a problem. You are not their judge. This is precisely why we have around privacy, what your company can ask you, etc. You can save your boss the time and quit. You can save even more time by asking for the full background of every coworker of yours and determine if they live up to your standards. Better yet, make your own company comprised of only people who meet your definition of acceptable people based on their political and social opinions that they don’t even share at work. Be careful though, you’re likely to get sued for violating employment laws.
- threatofrain 5y ago
  The problem isn't crime, but moral credibility. The justice system is not for moral credibility, it is there for moral determination. Even the accusation of sexual abuse is extremely chilling for those who work with children — because it strikes at credibility, at whether people feel you are safe around kids. Would you feel that a pediatrician or teacher accused of sexual misconduct is safe around your children? Or rather, are you surprised that many people would say f-ing no? Note that being accused is not a crime, and it's an even lesser standard than some old Tweet, because at least that's a written record. But mere accusation can destroy credibility, especially when it has to do with sex. Now if you were a black man and your boss attended a white power rally, are you seriously going to say there isn't a F'ing Interesting Story of Moral Credibility going on here? If that employee ever sues for workplace discrimination, do people think that a history of white power rallies shouldn't come up?