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I think it depends on how the frameworks are used. Our development team moved from maintaining every dependency in code, to using Spring for dependency injectio

by rluhar 15y ago

I think it depends on how the frameworks are used. Our development team moved from maintaining every dependency in code, to using Spring for dependency injection (and not much else) and saw measurable improvements in productivity. It is especially useful when working in a distributed team. If the team knows how to use the framework properly (for spring: use annotations, autowiring) a lot of the issues mentioned above can be mitigated. There is a reason why any serious project written in Java will generally use Spring or Guice (Google's DI framework). Jave EE, on the other hand, is crap.

vetler 15y ago
Have you tried Java EE 6 at all? It seems to be catching up to Spring. That said, there might not be many reasons to use it, especially since not many application servers support it. I worked with Java EE in 2004, took a break, and started working with it again last year. It's not too bad, except for JSF. JSF is really a horrible mess. They should scrap it and start over.
rhysk 15y ago
Annotations and auto-wiring for a "serious project"? Please no. If you want to see how to write code in java without going framework mad, look at this book http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com I have worked with one of the authors on a "serious project" in a bank and over time we gradually ripped out the frameworks, making the code much more explicit and less magic.
- rluhar 15y ago
  Indeed. But sometimes you need "magic". If you have a developer that is working on a specific part of an application, building business logic that does not require her to know how MQ transactions are handled, or which database drivers are used, using a DI framework like Spring or Guice may help. These frameworks may add some overhead, but they also make unit testing, documentation and reduce code complexity of business logic. I guess it depends on the team you are working with. If you have solid, experienced engineers who understand the business domain, using Spring may not be relevant. But if you have a team that have different levels of skills and experience, a framework that abstracts away some of the underlying complexity is useful. If you are building a real time trading system, you probably don't want to use Spring because you want to control each and every component. But for most other projects it can be useful. Btw - your link mentions TDD. What tools did you use? (just out of curiousity..)
bborud 15y ago
There is a reason why I would generally assume that any developer that assumes that any serious project generally uses Spring is generally mediocre to bad. Generally. Java may be a bit limp. But there's no reason to hit it over the head with a bent crutch as heavy as Spring. That doesn't make it better. Generally.
- rluhar 15y ago
  Very good point. But - in a large enough project (I am talking more than 5 developers), especially with work being done offshore, there will be mediocre or inexperienced developers. I think having a framework like Spring is helpful.

by rluhar 15y ago

vetler 15y ago

Have you tried Java EE 6 at all? It seems to be catching up to Spring. That said, there might not be many reasons to use it, especially since not many application servers support it. I worked with Java EE in 2004, took a break, and started working with it again last year. It's not too bad, except for JSF. JSF is really a horrible mess. They should scrap it and start over.

rhysk 15y ago

Annotations and auto-wiring for a "serious project"? Please no. If you want to see how to write code in java without going framework mad, look at this book http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com http://www.growing-object-oriented-software.com I have worked with one of the authors on a "serious project" in a bank and over time we gradually ripped out the frameworks, making the code much more explicit and less magic.

rluhar 15y ago
Indeed. But sometimes you need "magic". If you have a developer that is working on a specific part of an application, building business logic that does not require her to know how MQ transactions are handled, or which database drivers are used, using a DI framework like Spring or Guice may help. These frameworks may add some overhead, but they also make unit testing, documentation and reduce code complexity of business logic. I guess it depends on the team you are working with. If you have solid, experienced engineers who understand the business domain, using Spring may not be relevant. But if you have a team that have different levels of skills and experience, a framework that abstracts away some of the underlying complexity is useful. If you are building a real time trading system, you probably don't want to use Spring because you want to control each and every component. But for most other projects it can be useful. Btw - your link mentions TDD. What tools did you use? (just out of curiousity..)

bborud 15y ago

There is a reason why I would generally assume that any developer that assumes that any serious project generally uses Spring is generally mediocre to bad. Generally. Java may be a bit limp. But there's no reason to hit it over the head with a bent crutch as heavy as Spring. That doesn't make it better. Generally.

rluhar 15y ago
Very good point. But - in a large enough project (I am talking more than 5 developers), especially with work being done offshore, there will be mediocre or inexperienced developers. I think having a framework like Spring is helpful.