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I really wish Apple would just allow side loading. This would alleviate most concerns and would enable everyone to run any software they want on the device they

I really wish Apple would just allow side loading. This would alleviate most concerns and would enable everyone to run any software they want on the device they bought.

CubsFan1060 5y ago
But Epic is suing google too.
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  That's because Google is also engaging in anti-competitive behavior, and abuse their duopoly with Apple in the mobile app distribution market. User installable 3rd party mobile app stores cannot implement automatic upgrades, background installation of apps, or batch installs of apps like the Play Store can. These limitations are designed by Google and are implemented in Android. If the user tries to install an app on their own, they're shown scary warnings and must adjust arcane settings, but if they use Google's Play Store, no scary warnings are shown and no settings need to be adjusted. They're told they're "protected" by Play Protect, but aren't shown scary warnings about the fact that the Play Store is the main distribution method for malware on Android[1] when they go to install apps with it. The Play Store isn't alone in being a vector for malware, as Apple's App Store is responsible for nearly half of a billion malware installs of just XcodeGhost alone[2]. Like Apple, Google also mandates that apps distributed via the Play Store must use Google's payment system[3], and give Google a 15% to 30% cut of revenue: > Developers charging for apps and downloads from Google Play must use Google Play's billing system as the method of payment. [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/play-store-identified-as-main-distribution-vector-for-most-android-malware/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/play-store-identified-as-main-... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bbmz/the-fortnite-trial-is-exposing-details-about-the-biggest-iphone-hack-of-all-time https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bbmz/the-fortnite-trial-is... [3] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/9858738?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
- paxys 5y ago
  That one is because Google forced OnePlus and LG to back out of their deal with Epic to preload the non Play Store version of Fortnite on their devices by default – https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-games-oneplus-deal-google-play-store-lawsuit-lg https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-ga...
gjsman-1000 5y ago
The major problem with enabling sideloading from Apple's perspective is that if they allowed sideloading, all of the big tech companies that compete with Apple would happily, immediately, force users to sideload their app. Case study: Facebook. Hates Apple for the App Tracking Transparency prompt. Hates that they get substantially less revenue from iPhone users, according to leaked slides, due to restrictions on what APIs they can use to fingerprint and track users. Hates having a Privacy Label in the App Store. Solution? Force users to sideload. They'll most likely do it because they want Facebook, Facebook doesn't need to follow Apple's rules anymore, problem solved. In that case, it is less that Apple is afraid of giving users the choice, as much as that large apps that people use will force users to make the choice for them. And for that reason, while some users would legitimately want their iPhones to be able to install apps from anywhere, most users hitting the "Allow Sideloading" button would have essentially been forced into doing so, without actually wanting it.
- endemic 5y ago
  Not sure if that would be a panacea for Facebook in this case. Aren't the privacy controls built into the OS?
  - gjsman-1000 5y ago
    Not everything. The transparency prompt would still appear, but Facebook wouldn't need to show users that Privacy Label in the App Store. They could also access restricted iOS Entitlements that the App Store would not permit. These entitlements can do things such as "read data from other apps" or "see what apps are installed in the system" or other functionality that the App Store doesn't allow under almost any circumstances. If sideloading was enabled, Facebook could claim use of those entitlements. iOS could potentially show a prompt forcing users to OK their use, but Facebook would obviously hope most people just tap the button without thinking.
  - clairity 5y ago
    further toward the ideal consumer outcome, the apple app store would be compelled to compete with any other ios app store (e.g., cydia) but apple would be allowed to be as stringent about security and privacy of the device as they’d like (promoting competition in the mobile phone market, in addition to the apps/app store market). then, facebook couldn’t circumvent the protections that consumers want in their mobile devices by hopping to another app store.
Spooky23 5y ago
They essentially do. I have customers running dozens of apps not from the App Store.
agogdog 5y ago
Apple is moving in the opposite direction in macOS, so I wouldn't hold my breath on them choosing to do this whatsoever. Sideloading goes against their entire iOS app philosophy. This would also mean that Facebook would start sideloading and attempt to circumvent any of the tracking/privacy enhancements they've built in to iOS.
mrtksn 5y ago
I think the correct wording should be "I really wish Apple would just make it easy side loading". I wish it too. I know how unpopular this is but I will say it anyway, I can't stand it and I am willing to sacrifice a few karma points to convey the message. I have distaste against the claim that Apple is not allowing people do something on their device because this is technically false. What Apple is not allowing is using its App distribution platform outside of their store rules. What Apple is not helping with is side loading. They don't have a say on what you install on your phone but they have a say on what you can distribute on their App Store. That's why it's the developers that are suing, not the users. However hard it is, you have all the rights to run whatever you like on your device you purchased. The "Apple doesn't allow you to install apps, you don't own the device" is a fallacy. You can pay for the convenience(get a developer account, use the Apple toolchain to install your apps) or hack your device and run whatever you want on it and both are completely O.K. At the time of purchase you don't sign anything preventing you from doing it, consumer devices are not like those developer devices that apple sells or send upon limited use or NDA agreements. You are free to do whatever you like to your device. Install a Chromium engine or blend it for YouTube views, it's up to you. You are only limited with your local laws, so dispose it's battery responsibly and that's it.
- blintz 5y ago
  >However hard it is, you have all the rights to run whatever you like on your device you purchased. This is patently false. Many entitlements are locked behind explicit, human approval from the Apple Developer Program; examples include NFC with payment-related Application IDs and Multicast Networking. You actually have to submit a request that basically goes 'Please can I write software for this device?' to use that hardware on the device (see https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=0oi77447 https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=0oi77447). You emphatically are NOT able to run 'whatever you like'.
  - mrtksn 5y ago
    Apple can't lock physics. However Apple can lock their software. The software is licensed, you don't buy that but licence it like Photoshop. Adobe also doesn't provide you with an easy way to do your taxes on Photoshop but I'm yet hear to claim that Adobe is preventing us from doing our taxes.(I couldn't think out of my head a major software that's not on subscription model, hmm) Remove it and install something like Android on it, it is hard but it has been done before. I simply don't see how Apple is obligated to make it easy or create tools for doing it. It's not promised upon purchase or on any advertisement materials. It's not different than complaining that Apple does not let you use your phone as pocket heater through heating the Qi coil.
musicale 5y ago
> I really wish Apple would just allow side loading They used to, more or less, either using a development/test certificate or an enterprise certificate. I believe Apple cracked down after this was taken advantage of at scale by Facebook and Google, as well as developers of other apps which would typically be banned from the App store. https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/13/apple-enterprise-program-hacked-apps/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/13/apple-enterprise-progra...

I really wish Apple would just allow side loading. This would alleviate most concerns and would enable everyone to run any software they want on the device they bought.

CubsFan1060 5y ago

But Epic is suing google too.

heavyset_go 5y ago
That's because Google is also engaging in anti-competitive behavior, and abuse their duopoly with Apple in the mobile app distribution market. User installable 3rd party mobile app stores cannot implement automatic upgrades, background installation of apps, or batch installs of apps like the Play Store can. These limitations are designed by Google and are implemented in Android. If the user tries to install an app on their own, they're shown scary warnings and must adjust arcane settings, but if they use Google's Play Store, no scary warnings are shown and no settings need to be adjusted. They're told they're "protected" by Play Protect, but aren't shown scary warnings about the fact that the Play Store is the main distribution method for malware on Android[1] when they go to install apps with it. The Play Store isn't alone in being a vector for malware, as Apple's App Store is responsible for nearly half of a billion malware installs of just XcodeGhost alone[2]. Like Apple, Google also mandates that apps distributed via the Play Store must use Google's payment system[3], and give Google a 15% to 30% cut of revenue: > Developers charging for apps and downloads from Google Play must use Google Play's billing system as the method of payment. [1] https://www.zdnet.com/article/play-store-identified-as-main-distribution-vector-for-most-android-malware/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/play-store-identified-as-main-... [2] https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bbmz/the-fortnite-trial-is-exposing-details-about-the-biggest-iphone-hack-of-all-time https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7bbmz/the-fortnite-trial-is... [3] https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/9858738?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ...
paxys 5y ago
That one is because Google forced OnePlus and LG to back out of their deal with Epic to preload the non Play Store version of Fortnite on their devices by default – https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-games-oneplus-deal-google-play-store-lawsuit-lg https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/13/21368395/fortnite-epic-ga...

gjsman-1000 5y ago

The major problem with enabling sideloading from Apple's perspective is that if they allowed sideloading, all of the big tech companies that compete with Apple would happily, immediately, force users to sideload their app. Case study: Facebook. Hates Apple for the App Tracking Transparency prompt. Hates that they get substantially less revenue from iPhone users, according to leaked slides, due to restrictions on what APIs they can use to fingerprint and track users. Hates having a Privacy Label in the App Store. Solution? Force users to sideload. They'll most likely do it because they want Facebook, Facebook doesn't need to follow Apple's rules anymore, problem solved. In that case, it is less that Apple is afraid of giving users the choice, as much as that large apps that people use will force users to make the choice for them. And for that reason, while some users would legitimately want their iPhones to be able to install apps from anywhere, most users hitting the "Allow Sideloading" button would have essentially been forced into doing so, without actually wanting it.

endemic 5y ago
Not sure if that would be a panacea for Facebook in this case. Aren't the privacy controls built into the OS?
- gjsman-1000 5y ago
  Not everything. The transparency prompt would still appear, but Facebook wouldn't need to show users that Privacy Label in the App Store. They could also access restricted iOS Entitlements that the App Store would not permit. These entitlements can do things such as "read data from other apps" or "see what apps are installed in the system" or other functionality that the App Store doesn't allow under almost any circumstances. If sideloading was enabled, Facebook could claim use of those entitlements. iOS could potentially show a prompt forcing users to OK their use, but Facebook would obviously hope most people just tap the button without thinking.
- clairity 5y ago
  further toward the ideal consumer outcome, the apple app store would be compelled to compete with any other ios app store (e.g., cydia) but apple would be allowed to be as stringent about security and privacy of the device as they’d like (promoting competition in the mobile phone market, in addition to the apps/app store market). then, facebook couldn’t circumvent the protections that consumers want in their mobile devices by hopping to another app store.

Spooky23 5y ago

They essentially do. I have customers running dozens of apps not from the App Store.

agogdog 5y ago

Apple is moving in the opposite direction in macOS, so I wouldn't hold my breath on them choosing to do this whatsoever. Sideloading goes against their entire iOS app philosophy. This would also mean that Facebook would start sideloading and attempt to circumvent any of the tracking/privacy enhancements they've built in to iOS.

mrtksn 5y ago

I think the correct wording should be "I really wish Apple would just make it easy side loading". I wish it too. I know how unpopular this is but I will say it anyway, I can't stand it and I am willing to sacrifice a few karma points to convey the message. I have distaste against the claim that Apple is not allowing people do something on their device because this is technically false. What Apple is not allowing is using its App distribution platform outside of their store rules. What Apple is not helping with is side loading. They don't have a say on what you install on your phone but they have a say on what you can distribute on their App Store. That's why it's the developers that are suing, not the users. However hard it is, you have all the rights to run whatever you like on your device you purchased. The "Apple doesn't allow you to install apps, you don't own the device" is a fallacy. You can pay for the convenience(get a developer account, use the Apple toolchain to install your apps) or hack your device and run whatever you want on it and both are completely O.K. At the time of purchase you don't sign anything preventing you from doing it, consumer devices are not like those developer devices that apple sells or send upon limited use or NDA agreements. You are free to do whatever you like to your device. Install a Chromium engine or blend it for YouTube views, it's up to you. You are only limited with your local laws, so dispose it's battery responsibly and that's it.

blintz 5y ago
>However hard it is, you have all the rights to run whatever you like on your device you purchased. This is patently false. Many entitlements are locked behind explicit, human approval from the Apple Developer Program; examples include NFC with payment-related Application IDs and Multicast Networking. You actually have to submit a request that basically goes 'Please can I write software for this device?' to use that hardware on the device (see https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=0oi77447 https://developer.apple.com/news/?id=0oi77447). You emphatically are NOT able to run 'whatever you like'.
- mrtksn 5y ago
  Apple can't lock physics. However Apple can lock their software. The software is licensed, you don't buy that but licence it like Photoshop. Adobe also doesn't provide you with an easy way to do your taxes on Photoshop but I'm yet hear to claim that Adobe is preventing us from doing our taxes.(I couldn't think out of my head a major software that's not on subscription model, hmm) Remove it and install something like Android on it, it is hard but it has been done before. I simply don't see how Apple is obligated to make it easy or create tools for doing it. It's not promised upon purchase or on any advertisement materials. It's not different than complaining that Apple does not let you use your phone as pocket heater through heating the Qi coil.

musicale 5y ago

> I really wish Apple would just allow side loading They used to, more or less, either using a development/test certificate or an enterprise certificate. I believe Apple cracked down after this was taken advantage of at scale by Facebook and Google, as well as developers of other apps which would typically be banned from the App store. https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/13/apple-enterprise-program-hacked-apps/ https://www.macrumors.com/2019/02/13/apple-enterprise-progra...