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Consider yourself lucky that you can reliably trace land ownership for centuries. Eastern Europe went through multiple upheavals in last 100 years and every tim

by rini17 5y ago

Consider yourself lucky that you can reliably trace land ownership for centuries. Eastern Europe went through multiple upheavals in last 100 years and every time the wheel of history turned, quite a lot of land was dispossessed/repossessed by law. In Slovakia we basically ended up with two versions of land registry (called register "C" and "E") and the ongoing effort to reconcile them. Many properties are said to be "nevysporiadané" = "not settled up" which means all the owners are not known - previous landowner died or emigrated and it waits for their descendants to claim it. It isn't possible to build anything on these lots.

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
Sounds a lot like what's been going on in Israel / Palestine.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- afiori 5y ago
  Specifically the first kind, much less of the second.
tpm 5y ago
Add to that the Hungarian inheritance rules - properties were divided evenly between the heirs, so I can now own a 13/6240 of an agricultural field. The farm still pays me a small yearly dividend and offers to buy my share, but that's really everything what can be done with it.
- Aperocky 5y ago
  Are wills not respected? Usually wills try to leave (different) things in one owner.
  - rini17 5y ago
    They aren't widely used. Parents prefer to divide property between children by donating it while they are alive.
  - jcranmer 5y ago
    Historically, divisible estates were the norm in most of Europe in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages. By the time the High Middle Ages rolls around, England and France switch to a system of primogeniture, granting all the lands to the oldest son. However, in Germany, divisibility remained the norm. This resulted in a tendency of lands in the Holy Roman Empire to proliferate as compared to France or England. I don't know any specifics about Hungary, but I presume that the general norm is as in Germany rather than England/France.
PicassoCTs 5y ago
In east germany, there are strange constellations, were someone might own the ground, but not the house upon it and vice versa. Some pieces of land were bought, before the original "owning" aristocrats descendants laid claim to them. In west germany, there were, originally very small, medieval fields, so a "Flurbereinigung" happened several times. This led to larger fields to work on, but below, some of them still are patchwork, paid yearly for, some only leaseholds from the church, some even still paid in natural products (deputats -> m^3 wood, grain, sugar) as per contract. Some parts of lands have owners, but due to the exponential nature of "Erbengemeinschaften" (community of heirs), the land is splitting up more with each generation of inheritance and some of the heirs do not want to lay claim to the ever smaller pieces of land in the middle of nowhere, due to the juristic costs. Which in the long run leads to atomized "unclaimed" land. Also the church runs alot of old folks homes, and thus persuades old people to transfer there land to the church, so in some towns, half the houses are owned by the catholic church, the children renting there parents home from them. Strange constellations.
- alach11 5y ago
  This split ownership reminds me of a similar situation in the USA, where different entities can own the surface rights and mineral rights. What gets weird, is owning the mineral rights legally entitles you to use the surface (to a limited degree) to access the minerals.
  - ddoolin 5y ago
    This is pretty common in the Rockies in Colorado, although not usually exercised! Many, many lots are zoned M for Mining and the situation you mentioned applies just like that.
- visualradio 5y ago
  > Also the church runs alot of old folks homes, and thus persuades old people to transfer there land to the church, so in some towns, half the houses are owned by the catholic church Is the church exempt from property tax in Germany? If so this sounds like a return to 'mortmain' principle of middle ages which caused a lot of conflict between government and church historically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortmain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortmain England developed quicker than the rest of Europe because the King limited the accumulation of tax exempt real estate by the church. The church was essentially largest absentee corporate land holder in Europe. It left large quantities of land vacant and did not contribute public fees towards infrastructure improvements.
jakub_g 5y ago
Isn't there any law saying that "if no one claims it for N years, the state takes it" / "if someone else uses a place for N years and no one else claims it, that person can claim it?" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucaption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucaption
- thefounder 5y ago
  It would be a bit nasty to make a such law considering that the "state"(usually the communist state) stole the property and the rightful owners were persecuted.
  - rini17 5y ago
    There is a way - if you can prove you used the land for decades as if you owned it and noone turns up to challenge it, you can obtain ownership. But this too was already fraudulently abused. Generally, a poor rule of law complicates everything. (just as aside, communist land "reforms" are most visible but there were others, based on nationality - taken from Jews, Hungarians, Germans)
- HerrMonnezza 5y ago
  I had the same thought. Reading the Wikipedia page for the respective Italian law [1], it seems to me (but IANAL) that it would only apply to ownership of material things, not apply to monetary claims. However, Italy also abolished all noble titles with the fall of the monarchy in 1946 -- I would have also expected that fiefs and any associated claims had been extinguished at the same time... [1]: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucapione https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucapione
- SmellTheGlove 5y ago
  Unsure about Italy, but common law has the doctrine of laches, which many US jurisdictions recognize. It effectively says, "Sure, you have a claim, but you sat on it too long so tough luck."
frontiersummit 5y ago
This is only slightly worse than Slovakia's official online Cadastral (property ownership) map, which still requires using Internet Explorer and downloading an ActiveX Plugin. https://mapa.katasterportal.sk/kapor2/index.asp https://mapa.katasterportal.sk/kapor2/index.asp I'm still trying to find a way to access it from Linux without going through a VM.
- rini17 5y ago
  There's now an alternative: https://zbgis.skgeodesy.sk/mkzbgis/sk/kataster?bm=zbgis&z=8&c=19.530000,48.800000# https://zbgis.skgeodesy.sk/mkzbgis/sk/kataster?bm=zbgis&z=8&...
mlinksva 5y ago
I found my great grandfather and great granduncle listed on what seem to be (from skimming autotranslations) missing landowner documents in the Czech Republic, dated as recently as the beginning of 2021 (web version linked below). Which was surprising to me, since they immigrated to the US around 1905, before the obvious 20th century upheavals. I guess unless property is valuable enough for someone (including the state) to invest effort in securing ownership of, it can sit with unclear ownership forever, more or less. https://www.hlidamsikatastr.cz/Katastr/Neznami-vlastnici https://www.hlidamsikatastr.cz/Katastr/Neznami-vlastnici says unclaimed land will be forfeited to the state in 2023, I guess this must be highly specific to the Czech Republic. Still surprising to me that it'd take 100+ years!
visualradio 5y ago
> which means all the owners are not known - previous landowner died or emigrated and it waits for their descendants to claim it. It isn't possible to build anything on these lots In the U.S. there is no central registrar, deeds are recorded at local level, and owners are regularly found by collecting property tax. Back tax is tracked independently of ownership so if true owner fails to pay tax within a few years there is lien or foreclosure. I'm guessing in Slovakia they might only tax sales or income of property rather than passive enclosure? If back taxes are levied on parcel the owners should immediately make themselves known. "The Earth belongs in usufruct to the living. The dead have neither powers nor rights over it" - Thomas Jefferson
- jcrawfordor 5y ago
  There are large swaths of land in the US which are under ownership but unusable because the owners are absentee and the cost and complexity of locating the owner or pursuing a lein are both greater than the value of the property. In my part of the country there are places where this situation has persisted for fifty years, as the auction value of the property is only in the hundreds of dollars per acre and back property tax in the same range ($16 per year)... and these are properties under modern plats. Dairy farms expand acre by acre, sometimes hiring private investigators in an effort to locate owners of adjacent lots to make a buyout offer. This isn't really all that unusual in the rural west, it's a legacy of the post-WWII suburban real estate boom. Even in higher property value areas I would be surprised to see a tax delinquency action taken after just a few years. The administrative cost is substantial.
  - visualradio 5y ago
    > In my part of the country there are places where this situation has persisted for fifty years, as the auction value of the property is only in the hundreds of dollars per acre At 2021 market valuations, not lower public assessments? > Even in higher property value areas I would be surprised to see a tax delinquency action taken after just a few years. The administrative cost is substantial In some areas owner only has a few years then legal department will process tax sale within few months. It's true that in many areas property tax less than 1% of true market value. Prior to 1930s when no state or local government was collecting sales tax it used to be closer 3%.

by rini17 5y ago

Cthulhu_ 5y ago

Sounds a lot like what's been going on in Israel / Palestine.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
afiori 5y ago
Specifically the first kind, much less of the second.

tpm 5y ago

Add to that the Hungarian inheritance rules - properties were divided evenly between the heirs, so I can now own a 13/6240 of an agricultural field. The farm still pays me a small yearly dividend and offers to buy my share, but that's really everything what can be done with it.

Aperocky 5y ago
Are wills not respected? Usually wills try to leave (different) things in one owner.
- rini17 5y ago
  They aren't widely used. Parents prefer to divide property between children by donating it while they are alive.
- jcranmer 5y ago
  Historically, divisible estates were the norm in most of Europe in Late Antiquity and the Early Middle Ages. By the time the High Middle Ages rolls around, England and France switch to a system of primogeniture, granting all the lands to the oldest son. However, in Germany, divisibility remained the norm. This resulted in a tendency of lands in the Holy Roman Empire to proliferate as compared to France or England. I don't know any specifics about Hungary, but I presume that the general norm is as in Germany rather than England/France.

PicassoCTs 5y ago

In east germany, there are strange constellations, were someone might own the ground, but not the house upon it and vice versa. Some pieces of land were bought, before the original "owning" aristocrats descendants laid claim to them. In west germany, there were, originally very small, medieval fields, so a "Flurbereinigung" happened several times. This led to larger fields to work on, but below, some of them still are patchwork, paid yearly for, some only leaseholds from the church, some even still paid in natural products (deputats -> m^3 wood, grain, sugar) as per contract. Some parts of lands have owners, but due to the exponential nature of "Erbengemeinschaften" (community of heirs), the land is splitting up more with each generation of inheritance and some of the heirs do not want to lay claim to the ever smaller pieces of land in the middle of nowhere, due to the juristic costs. Which in the long run leads to atomized "unclaimed" land. Also the church runs alot of old folks homes, and thus persuades old people to transfer there land to the church, so in some towns, half the houses are owned by the catholic church, the children renting there parents home from them. Strange constellations.

alach11 5y ago
This split ownership reminds me of a similar situation in the USA, where different entities can own the surface rights and mineral rights. What gets weird, is owning the mineral rights legally entitles you to use the surface (to a limited degree) to access the minerals.
- ddoolin 5y ago
  This is pretty common in the Rockies in Colorado, although not usually exercised! Many, many lots are zoned M for Mining and the situation you mentioned applies just like that.
visualradio 5y ago
> Also the church runs alot of old folks homes, and thus persuades old people to transfer there land to the church, so in some towns, half the houses are owned by the catholic church Is the church exempt from property tax in Germany? If so this sounds like a return to 'mortmain' principle of middle ages which caused a lot of conflict between government and church historically: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortmain https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortmain England developed quicker than the rest of Europe because the King limited the accumulation of tax exempt real estate by the church. The church was essentially largest absentee corporate land holder in Europe. It left large quantities of land vacant and did not contribute public fees towards infrastructure improvements.

jakub_g 5y ago

Isn't there any law saying that "if no one claims it for N years, the state takes it" / "if someone else uses a place for N years and no one else claims it, that person can claim it?" [1] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucaption https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucaption

thefounder 5y ago
It would be a bit nasty to make a such law considering that the "state"(usually the communist state) stole the property and the rightful owners were persecuted.
- rini17 5y ago
  There is a way - if you can prove you used the land for decades as if you owned it and noone turns up to challenge it, you can obtain ownership. But this too was already fraudulently abused. Generally, a poor rule of law complicates everything. (just as aside, communist land "reforms" are most visible but there were others, based on nationality - taken from Jews, Hungarians, Germans)
HerrMonnezza 5y ago
I had the same thought. Reading the Wikipedia page for the respective Italian law [1], it seems to me (but IANAL) that it would only apply to ownership of material things, not apply to monetary claims. However, Italy also abolished all noble titles with the fall of the monarchy in 1946 -- I would have also expected that fiefs and any associated claims had been extinguished at the same time... [1]: https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucapione https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usucapione
SmellTheGlove 5y ago
Unsure about Italy, but common law has the doctrine of laches, which many US jurisdictions recognize. It effectively says, "Sure, you have a claim, but you sat on it too long so tough luck."

frontiersummit 5y ago

This is only slightly worse than Slovakia's official online Cadastral (property ownership) map, which still requires using Internet Explorer and downloading an ActiveX Plugin. https://mapa.katasterportal.sk/kapor2/index.asp https://mapa.katasterportal.sk/kapor2/index.asp I'm still trying to find a way to access it from Linux without going through a VM.

rini17 5y ago
There's now an alternative: https://zbgis.skgeodesy.sk/mkzbgis/sk/kataster?bm=zbgis&z=8&c=19.530000,48.800000# https://zbgis.skgeodesy.sk/mkzbgis/sk/kataster?bm=zbgis&z=8&...

mlinksva 5y ago

I found my great grandfather and great granduncle listed on what seem to be (from skimming autotranslations) missing landowner documents in the Czech Republic, dated as recently as the beginning of 2021 (web version linked below). Which was surprising to me, since they immigrated to the US around 1905, before the obvious 20th century upheavals. I guess unless property is valuable enough for someone (including the state) to invest effort in securing ownership of, it can sit with unclear ownership forever, more or less. https://www.hlidamsikatastr.cz/Katastr/Neznami-vlastnici https://www.hlidamsikatastr.cz/Katastr/Neznami-vlastnici says unclaimed land will be forfeited to the state in 2023, I guess this must be highly specific to the Czech Republic. Still surprising to me that it'd take 100+ years!

visualradio 5y ago

> which means all the owners are not known - previous landowner died or emigrated and it waits for their descendants to claim it. It isn't possible to build anything on these lots In the U.S. there is no central registrar, deeds are recorded at local level, and owners are regularly found by collecting property tax. Back tax is tracked independently of ownership so if true owner fails to pay tax within a few years there is lien or foreclosure. I'm guessing in Slovakia they might only tax sales or income of property rather than passive enclosure? If back taxes are levied on parcel the owners should immediately make themselves known. "The Earth belongs in usufruct to the living. The dead have neither powers nor rights over it" - Thomas Jefferson

jcrawfordor 5y ago
There are large swaths of land in the US which are under ownership but unusable because the owners are absentee and the cost and complexity of locating the owner or pursuing a lein are both greater than the value of the property. In my part of the country there are places where this situation has persisted for fifty years, as the auction value of the property is only in the hundreds of dollars per acre and back property tax in the same range ($16 per year)... and these are properties under modern plats. Dairy farms expand acre by acre, sometimes hiring private investigators in an effort to locate owners of adjacent lots to make a buyout offer. This isn't really all that unusual in the rural west, it's a legacy of the post-WWII suburban real estate boom. Even in higher property value areas I would be surprised to see a tax delinquency action taken after just a few years. The administrative cost is substantial.
- visualradio 5y ago
  > In my part of the country there are places where this situation has persisted for fifty years, as the auction value of the property is only in the hundreds of dollars per acre At 2021 market valuations, not lower public assessments? > Even in higher property value areas I would be surprised to see a tax delinquency action taken after just a few years. The administrative cost is substantial In some areas owner only has a few years then legal department will process tax sale within few months. It's true that in many areas property tax less than 1% of true market value. Prior to 1930s when no state or local government was collecting sales tax it used to be closer 3%.