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>These are selected due to their immutable nature (religion is a special case I’m not going to explain here) Why did you choose to leave that out? Is it perhap

>These are selected due to their immutable nature (religion is a special case I’m not going to explain here) Why did you choose to leave that out? Is it perhaps because it invalidates your entire argument? Freedom of religion and expression are coded in the same amendment for a reason, and come from the same historically progressive ideals. >To continue the metaphor, this is less like someone getting kicked out of a shop because of their race or gender, and more like getting kicked out for refusing to wear pants. Do you think freedom of expression is as important and historically significant to human rights (i.e. the right to not be refused service based on your skin color) as freedom to not wear pants?

ashtonkem 5y ago
> Why did you choose to leave that out? Is it perhaps because it invalidates your entire argument? Sigh. I'll remind you that it's a rule around here to presume good faith. Dealing with such comments is noxious and tiresome. I left it out because my post was already too long. If I left it out because it invalidated my point, I wouldn't have mentioned it. > Freedom of religion and expression are coded in the same amendment for a reason, and come from the same historically progressive ideals. Yes they are, but the amendment you're referencing limits only what the government can do, not private parties. We as a society have placed some restrictions on the right of free association via legislation, not amendment, but the overlap with the first amendment is much less clear than you imply. Some aspects of the first amendment have been turned into protected characteristics (religion), others have not (speech). > Do you think freedom of expression is as important and historically significant to human rights (i.e. the right to not be refused service based on your skin color) as freedom to not wear pants? I believe that freedom of expression is important, but I also believe that freedom of association is important. When the two come into conflict on private property, I generally hold that the right of free association is more important than free expression. This is because free expression is only temporarily inconvenienced if one is told to express elsewhere, while free association is inalterably destroyed if one cannot ask someone to leave your private property based on their behavior.
- deleted 5y ago
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- loveistheanswer 5y ago
  >free expression is only temporarily inconvenienced if one is told to express elsewhere, while free association is inalterably destroyed if one cannot ask someone to leave your private property based on their behavior. Were not talking about abolishing freedom of association or property rights, thats the same strawman hateful business used which of course did not happen. Were talking about the most powerful corporations in the world who have become de facto owners and governors of the town square in which the majority of communication takes place.

ashtonkem 5y ago

> Why did you choose to leave that out? Is it perhaps because it invalidates your entire argument? Sigh. I'll remind you that it's a rule around here to presume good faith. Dealing with such comments is noxious and tiresome. I left it out because my post was already too long. If I left it out because it invalidated my point, I wouldn't have mentioned it. > Freedom of religion and expression are coded in the same amendment for a reason, and come from the same historically progressive ideals. Yes they are, but the amendment you're referencing limits only what the government can do, not private parties. We as a society have placed some restrictions on the right of free association via legislation, not amendment, but the overlap with the first amendment is much less clear than you imply. Some aspects of the first amendment have been turned into protected characteristics (religion), others have not (speech). > Do you think freedom of expression is as important and historically significant to human rights (i.e. the right to not be refused service based on your skin color) as freedom to not wear pants? I believe that freedom of expression is important, but I also believe that freedom of association is important. When the two come into conflict on private property, I generally hold that the right of free association is more important than free expression. This is because free expression is only temporarily inconvenienced if one is told to express elsewhere, while free association is inalterably destroyed if one cannot ask someone to leave your private property based on their behavior.

deleted 5y ago
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loveistheanswer 5y ago
>free expression is only temporarily inconvenienced if one is told to express elsewhere, while free association is inalterably destroyed if one cannot ask someone to leave your private property based on their behavior. Were not talking about abolishing freedom of association or property rights, thats the same strawman hateful business used which of course did not happen. Were talking about the most powerful corporations in the world who have become de facto owners and governors of the town square in which the majority of communication takes place.