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> 2. [...] Again, consider Christian Heaven: singing hymns doesn't sound like loads of endless fun, but you're supposed to enjoy praying, so no one can point th

> 2. [...] Again, consider Christian Heaven: singing hymns doesn't sound like loads of endless fun, but you're supposed to enjoy praying, so no one can point this out. Clearly written by someone who's either never been to church, or goes to a boring one :-) If you've ever been to a fantastic (rock, jazz, whatever) concert, you know the amazing feeling of being caught up with others in the excitement of a shared musical experience. It's fantastic! Well, worship can be like this too... you may need to shop around to find an exciting church (and yeah, church is supposed to touch all your senses, not just your intellect, so excitement is OK.) And a ton of our popular ideas of heaven (walking on clouds in white robes playing lyres) doesn't come at all from the biblical account. Go read Revelation... heaven is going to be a city, the inhabitants will have jobs, etc. The biblical heaven looks interesting to me! See "Heaven" by Randy Alcorn for other interesting myths busted.

DizzyDoo 5y ago
I heard pastor/theologian John Piper recently say something like (this is my paraphrase): "The only way I can possibly be totally satisfied for an eternity, is in the presence of the infinitely good God." One of the biggest influences on my imagination in this regard has been NT Wright's focus on 'the new heavens and the new earth' - the redemption and bringing together of both - I haven't read Alcorn on this but I imagine there's a shared focus on the Bodily reality of things.
- chris_st 5y ago
  Thanks, I keep hearing about NT Wright, I'll have to look into his stuff. It's hard to imagine a God bigger (in various non-physical dimensions) than us, and that "making God in our image" just is so limiting. Notably, Kushner's "Why bad things happen to good people" states as a matter of fact, "If God has a plan, I can understand it." All I can say is, he never took higher math :-)
gjm11 5y ago
The author of the OP is a Jewish atheist, so indeed probably hasn't attended a lot of Christian church services. I think "you may need to shop around" is too strong. A churchgoer may care about other things besides whether the music at their church is exciting to them, and it's not obvious that they should prioritize excitement over (say) theological agreement, or strength of community, or what if anything the church does outside its services. The white robes arguably do come from the biblical account. Revelation 7:9: "After this ... behold, a great multitude which no man could number ... clothed in white robes". This is describing specifically "they who have come out of the great tribulation", so it may not be meant to apply to everyone there, but there are a whole lot of other white robes in Revelation. The lyres, too, or possibly harps. Revelation 15:2ff: "And I saw ... those who had conquered the beast and its image ... standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands". Again, not obviously everyone, but harps none the less. No walking on clouds there, though. And in any case it's not clear that taking Revelation as a straightforward account of what to expect in some future existence really matches much with its actual intention. Those white robes and "harps of God" and all the rest are all there as symbols of purity and worship and the like, and arguably the author of Revelation was much more interested in commenting on contemporary persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire than in actually predicting the future. (Note: I'm not a Christian, though I was one for many years. Feel free to discount any of the above as a result, if that seems appropriate to you.)
- chris_st 5y ago
  Well, you don't have to be Jewish or an atheist to think that standing around for eternity singing hymns sounds boring! And I didn't mean to be pushy about shopping around, but just to slightly counter the idea that church is, by definition, boring. Thanks for the updates from Revelation... I'll correct my misconceptions :-)
coldtea 5y ago
>Clearly written by someone who's either never been to church, or goes to a boring one :-) If you've ever been to a fantastic (rock, jazz, whatever) concert, you know the amazing feeling of being caught up with others in the excitement of a shared musical experience. It's fantastic! Yep, and besides that church hymns/music can be great fun, the part is written by someone with little knowledge of actual christian doctrine beyond cheap lore (and perhaps evangelical neo-christian imagery), because paradise is not about signing hymns and such (the same way hell is not some torture camp with tar pits and fires)...

DizzyDoo 5y ago

I heard pastor/theologian John Piper recently say something like (this is my paraphrase): "The only way I can possibly be totally satisfied for an eternity, is in the presence of the infinitely good God." One of the biggest influences on my imagination in this regard has been NT Wright's focus on 'the new heavens and the new earth' - the redemption and bringing together of both - I haven't read Alcorn on this but I imagine there's a shared focus on the Bodily reality of things.

chris_st 5y ago
Thanks, I keep hearing about NT Wright, I'll have to look into his stuff. It's hard to imagine a God bigger (in various non-physical dimensions) than us, and that "making God in our image" just is so limiting. Notably, Kushner's "Why bad things happen to good people" states as a matter of fact, "If God has a plan, I can understand it." All I can say is, he never took higher math :-)

gjm11 5y ago

The author of the OP is a Jewish atheist, so indeed probably hasn't attended a lot of Christian church services. I think "you may need to shop around" is too strong. A churchgoer may care about other things besides whether the music at their church is exciting to them, and it's not obvious that they should prioritize excitement over (say) theological agreement, or strength of community, or what if anything the church does outside its services. The white robes arguably do come from the biblical account. Revelation 7:9: "After this ... behold, a great multitude which no man could number ... clothed in white robes". This is describing specifically "they who have come out of the great tribulation", so it may not be meant to apply to everyone there, but there are a whole lot of other white robes in Revelation. The lyres, too, or possibly harps. Revelation 15:2ff: "And I saw ... those who had conquered the beast and its image ... standing beside the sea of glass with harps of God in their hands". Again, not obviously everyone, but harps none the less. No walking on clouds there, though. And in any case it's not clear that taking Revelation as a straightforward account of what to expect in some future existence really matches much with its actual intention. Those white robes and "harps of God" and all the rest are all there as symbols of purity and worship and the like, and arguably the author of Revelation was much more interested in commenting on contemporary persecution of Christians in the Roman Empire than in actually predicting the future. (Note: I'm not a Christian, though I was one for many years. Feel free to discount any of the above as a result, if that seems appropriate to you.)

chris_st 5y ago
Well, you don't have to be Jewish or an atheist to think that standing around for eternity singing hymns sounds boring! And I didn't mean to be pushy about shopping around, but just to slightly counter the idea that church is, by definition, boring. Thanks for the updates from Revelation... I'll correct my misconceptions :-)

coldtea 5y ago

>Clearly written by someone who's either never been to church, or goes to a boring one :-) If you've ever been to a fantastic (rock, jazz, whatever) concert, you know the amazing feeling of being caught up with others in the excitement of a shared musical experience. It's fantastic! Yep, and besides that church hymns/music can be great fun, the part is written by someone with little knowledge of actual christian doctrine beyond cheap lore (and perhaps evangelical neo-christian imagery), because paradise is not about signing hymns and such (the same way hell is not some torture camp with tar pits and fires)...