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I agree with you. The cost in lives and treasure of mounting a military campaign against some of these dictatorships would be very high. And practically speakin

by dean 15y ago

I agree with you. The cost in lives and treasure of mounting a military campaign against some of these dictatorships would be very high. And practically speaking, it's not necessarily worth it for America (as cold as that sounds). On the other hand, some dictatorships are 'friendly' to America, and would never be considered for an invasion anyway. But my point was more the mindset of the author, who appears to believe that America's goal really is to spread democracy around the world. And in the case of Syria, American silence is deafening. Assad reportedly tortures even the children, and there is not a peep of protest from America, let alone a threat of military intervention.

InclinedPlane 15y ago
There's certainly more than a peep of protest from America about Syria. Whether or not the current presidential administration cares is an entirely different matter, but the country is not the president.
- diogenescynic 15y ago
  Nice you're putting the blame on the president as if he's completely indifferent. Come on, how much influence do you think the USA carries in Syria? Short of military intervention what do you expect? We're already in 3 (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya) wars in the Middle East and basically flying drones in 2 others (Somalia and Yemen). How many more Middle Eastern/African/Muslim countries can we afford to attack before we risk serious blowback, much less afford these wars?
  - wnight 15y ago
    > Come on, how much influence do you think the USA carries in Syria? Short of military intervention what do you expect? For the USA to promise to provide logs from their worldwide wiretapping to an international war-crimes tribunal. That, combined with records from within the country, would be enough to prove the criminality of, and thus remove the cloak of legitimacy from, abusive leaders. Once the leader was identified as a criminal loyalist troops can defect without bloodshed, instead of fighting the people as their oaths would otherwise require. A consistent and strong American voice presenting the facts would change everything, even if the enforcement was left to others. At least the legitimacy of the rebels would be clear and they'd be able to get support.
    - diogenescynic 15y ago
      |For the USA to promise to provide logs from their worldwide wiretapping to an international war-crimes tribunal. Comical. You think the USA is wiretapping all phones everywhere? How does this work? How has this massive conspiracy not been exposed? You missed my point and misunderstood my question. What do you expect the US to do in Syria? We don't hold any leverage there. We're already militarily over-extended. Politically we have no appetite for another war with another Muslim country. |A consistent and strong American voice presenting the facts would change everything, even if the enforcement was left to others. At least the legitimacy of the rebels would be clear and they'd be able to get support. Done and done as GHFigs points out: "In a statement, President Barack Obama strongly condemned "the abhorrent violence" committed by the Syrian government. "I call upon the Syrian authorities to refrain from any further violence against peaceful protestors," said President Obama. "Furthermore, the arbitrary arrests, detention and torture of prisoners that has been reported must end now, and the free flow of information must be permitted so that there can be independent verification of events on the ground." http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Freedom-119951569.html http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Fr...
      - wnight 15y ago
        > Comical. You think the USA is wiretapping all phones everywhere? How does this work? How has this massive conspiracy not been exposed? Not all, everywhere. Just most, most everywhere. And it has been exposed, and been lost under Britney's sex scandals and such. Domestic wiretapping was exposed in 2003 or so. Massive signal-gathering was exposed in the 'room641' case. PBS Frontline did a show about it. There was a lawsuit against it until the FISA was used to quash it. The US government is a member of the ECHELON program, a sat-call sniffing program, and has been for 20+ years. Leaks show the USA has access to many foreign telephone networks (Pakistan, etc) and can snoop on most cellular networks. And that's just some of what we know about. With the reciprocation of a few allies the USA has access to probably 90% of the digital communication outside of China and a few other countries. > You missed my point and misunderstood my question. No, I did not. Though obviously you missed my reply. > What do you expect the US to do in Syria? We don't hold any leverage there. First, stop funding or participating in abuses there. Second, acknowledge past and present abuses, and offer a world court use of its surveillance to identify as many criminals in the government as possible. Enable those who do have leverage to point to specific events in dealing with Syria, and make it easier for the oppressed to get help. > Politically we have no appetite for another war with another Muslim country. Politically there was no will for the other ones. That's why the government lied about the reasons. > Done and done as GHFigs points out: President Barack Obama strongly condemned [...] Soft and useless. Unless the USA acknowledges its crimes - for instance delivering prisoners to Syria for torture, they can't push too hard for fear of the backlash. Offer Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld to the Iraqis as the start of an apology for the war and you might start to seem serious. The USA has the ability (through electronic surveillance and local intel assets) to specifically identify many of the crimes committed, the army/police officer who killed the civilian, the officer who ordered it, a recording of the order being sent, who authorized it, etc. Even spotty records would help collaborate local reports.
diogenescynic 15y ago
Happy 4th of July to you, too. America is not obligated to topple every dictator around the world. You sound exactly like the same people who would angrily criticize them for doing so even if they did and accuse them of imperialism. You seriously cannot win. Please tell me, what other country is out there doing more to defend freedom? | Assad reportedly tortures even the children, and there is not a peep of protest from America, let alone a threat of military intervention. We have no cards to play with Assad. We're already in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya and you want us to threaten war with a fourth Muslim country? Bizarre, arrogant, and extremely unwise. | And in the case of Syria, American silence is deafening. There have been daily reports on CNN, MSNBC, and probably even Fox. There are stories on ABC, NBC, CBS, and 60 Minutes. What do more do you expect? Again, what other country is out there doing more to defend freedom?
- Jach 15y ago
  I think you're attacking a straw man. I can't speak for dean but I thought his comment was pretty much: people seem to think it's America's duty to police the world, and America does a half-assed hypocritical job at it. > Please tell me, what other country is out there doing more to defend freedom? I hate questions like this because it treats freedom as a 1-bit entity when it has many dimensions. > We have no cards to play with Assad. We're already in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya and you want us to threaten war with a fourth Muslim country? Bizarre, arrogant, and ignorant. I don't think he wants to go to war with Syria but the lack of government denouncement and threats appears hypocritical given our other actions. Did you make this exact same argument before we started bombing Libya? It sounds like a counting argument. > What do more do you expect? Personally, I'd like to see the government do some action, though preferably non-military. It seems like the gov. has been more outspoken about Israel than Syria lately, which is surprising to me.
  - diogenescynic 15y ago
    I was more than fair with dean:...they are willing to send in the army to spread democracy in Iraq..they are clearly reluctant to help the people of Syria His comments are borderline trolling and clearly accuse the US of indifference to the Syrians and are also intellectually dishonest. We didn't invade Iraq to spread democracy, we invaded in the post-9/11 WMD debacle. You are defending revisionist history. | Personally, I'd like to see the government do some action, though preferably non-military Specifically what? What leverage does the US have in Syria? Will UN sanctions work there any better than in N. Korea/Iran? | seems like the gov. has been more outspoken about Israel than Syria lately, which is surprising to me. They have more leverage. They are actually on speaking terms with Israel.
GHFigs 15y ago
And in the case of Syria, American silence is deafening. "In a statement, President Barack Obama strongly condemned "the abhorrent violence" committed by the Syrian government. "I call upon the Syrian authorities to refrain from any further violence against peaceful protestors," said President Obama. "Furthermore, the arbitrary arrests, detention and torture of prisoners that has been reported must end now, and the free flow of information must be permitted so that there can be independent verification of events on the ground." -- http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Freedom-119951569.html http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Fr...

by dean 15y ago

InclinedPlane 15y ago

There's certainly more than a peep of protest from America about Syria. Whether or not the current presidential administration cares is an entirely different matter, but the country is not the president.

diogenescynic 15y ago
Nice you're putting the blame on the president as if he's completely indifferent. Come on, how much influence do you think the USA carries in Syria? Short of military intervention what do you expect? We're already in 3 (Afghanistan, Iraq, Libya) wars in the Middle East and basically flying drones in 2 others (Somalia and Yemen). How many more Middle Eastern/African/Muslim countries can we afford to attack before we risk serious blowback, much less afford these wars?
- wnight 15y ago
  > Come on, how much influence do you think the USA carries in Syria? Short of military intervention what do you expect? For the USA to promise to provide logs from their worldwide wiretapping to an international war-crimes tribunal. That, combined with records from within the country, would be enough to prove the criminality of, and thus remove the cloak of legitimacy from, abusive leaders. Once the leader was identified as a criminal loyalist troops can defect without bloodshed, instead of fighting the people as their oaths would otherwise require. A consistent and strong American voice presenting the facts would change everything, even if the enforcement was left to others. At least the legitimacy of the rebels would be clear and they'd be able to get support.
  - diogenescynic 15y ago
    |For the USA to promise to provide logs from their worldwide wiretapping to an international war-crimes tribunal. Comical. You think the USA is wiretapping all phones everywhere? How does this work? How has this massive conspiracy not been exposed? You missed my point and misunderstood my question. What do you expect the US to do in Syria? We don't hold any leverage there. We're already militarily over-extended. Politically we have no appetite for another war with another Muslim country. |A consistent and strong American voice presenting the facts would change everything, even if the enforcement was left to others. At least the legitimacy of the rebels would be clear and they'd be able to get support. Done and done as GHFigs points out: "In a statement, President Barack Obama strongly condemned "the abhorrent violence" committed by the Syrian government. "I call upon the Syrian authorities to refrain from any further violence against peaceful protestors," said President Obama. "Furthermore, the arbitrary arrests, detention and torture of prisoners that has been reported must end now, and the free flow of information must be permitted so that there can be independent verification of events on the ground." http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Freedom-119951569.html http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Fr...
    - wnight 15y ago
      > Comical. You think the USA is wiretapping all phones everywhere? How does this work? How has this massive conspiracy not been exposed? Not all, everywhere. Just most, most everywhere. And it has been exposed, and been lost under Britney's sex scandals and such. Domestic wiretapping was exposed in 2003 or so. Massive signal-gathering was exposed in the 'room641' case. PBS Frontline did a show about it. There was a lawsuit against it until the FISA was used to quash it. The US government is a member of the ECHELON program, a sat-call sniffing program, and has been for 20+ years. Leaks show the USA has access to many foreign telephone networks (Pakistan, etc) and can snoop on most cellular networks. And that's just some of what we know about. With the reciprocation of a few allies the USA has access to probably 90% of the digital communication outside of China and a few other countries. > You missed my point and misunderstood my question. No, I did not. Though obviously you missed my reply. > What do you expect the US to do in Syria? We don't hold any leverage there. First, stop funding or participating in abuses there. Second, acknowledge past and present abuses, and offer a world court use of its surveillance to identify as many criminals in the government as possible. Enable those who do have leverage to point to specific events in dealing with Syria, and make it easier for the oppressed to get help. > Politically we have no appetite for another war with another Muslim country. Politically there was no will for the other ones. That's why the government lied about the reasons. > Done and done as GHFigs points out: President Barack Obama strongly condemned [...] Soft and useless. Unless the USA acknowledges its crimes - for instance delivering prisoners to Syria for torture, they can't push too hard for fear of the backlash. Offer Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld to the Iraqis as the start of an apology for the war and you might start to seem serious. The USA has the ability (through electronic surveillance and local intel assets) to specifically identify many of the crimes committed, the army/police officer who killed the civilian, the officer who ordered it, a recording of the order being sent, who authorized it, etc. Even spotty records would help collaborate local reports.

diogenescynic 15y ago

Happy 4th of July to you, too. America is not obligated to topple every dictator around the world. You sound exactly like the same people who would angrily criticize them for doing so even if they did and accuse them of imperialism. You seriously cannot win. Please tell me, what other country is out there doing more to defend freedom? | Assad reportedly tortures even the children, and there is not a peep of protest from America, let alone a threat of military intervention. We have no cards to play with Assad. We're already in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya and you want us to threaten war with a fourth Muslim country? Bizarre, arrogant, and extremely unwise. | And in the case of Syria, American silence is deafening. There have been daily reports on CNN, MSNBC, and probably even Fox. There are stories on ABC, NBC, CBS, and 60 Minutes. What do more do you expect? Again, what other country is out there doing more to defend freedom?

Jach 15y ago
I think you're attacking a straw man. I can't speak for dean but I thought his comment was pretty much: people seem to think it's America's duty to police the world, and America does a half-assed hypocritical job at it. > Please tell me, what other country is out there doing more to defend freedom? I hate questions like this because it treats freedom as a 1-bit entity when it has many dimensions. > We have no cards to play with Assad. We're already in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya and you want us to threaten war with a fourth Muslim country? Bizarre, arrogant, and ignorant. I don't think he wants to go to war with Syria but the lack of government denouncement and threats appears hypocritical given our other actions. Did you make this exact same argument before we started bombing Libya? It sounds like a counting argument. > What do more do you expect? Personally, I'd like to see the government do some action, though preferably non-military. It seems like the gov. has been more outspoken about Israel than Syria lately, which is surprising to me.
- diogenescynic 15y ago
  I was more than fair with dean:...they are willing to send in the army to spread democracy in Iraq..they are clearly reluctant to help the people of Syria His comments are borderline trolling and clearly accuse the US of indifference to the Syrians and are also intellectually dishonest. We didn't invade Iraq to spread democracy, we invaded in the post-9/11 WMD debacle. You are defending revisionist history. | Personally, I'd like to see the government do some action, though preferably non-military Specifically what? What leverage does the US have in Syria? Will UN sanctions work there any better than in N. Korea/Iran? | seems like the gov. has been more outspoken about Israel than Syria lately, which is surprising to me. They have more leverage. They are actually on speaking terms with Israel.

GHFigs 15y ago

And in the case of Syria, American silence is deafening. "In a statement, President Barack Obama strongly condemned "the abhorrent violence" committed by the Syrian government. "I call upon the Syrian authorities to refrain from any further violence against peaceful protestors," said President Obama. "Furthermore, the arbitrary arrests, detention and torture of prisoners that has been reported must end now, and the free flow of information must be permitted so that there can be independent verification of events on the ground." -- http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Freedom-119951569.html http://www.voanews.com/policy/editorials/Syrians-Call-For-Fr...