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I’ve thought about this idea of what would make for a desirable utopia, and I can’t avoid the fact that either you would die at some point (which creates suffer

I’ve thought about this idea of what would make for a desirable utopia, and I can’t avoid the fact that either you would die at some point (which creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event) or live forever, which actually seems more horrific in a way — how could you possibly not go crazy after living trillions of years and thinking about the next trillion? The only real solution is to alter the human brain to no longer fear death or eternal existence. The point about the pleasure/pain imbalance is interesting. Think about how people slowly develop tolerance to drugs/medications that make you feel better and require more of it to get the same effect, but with pain we have the opposite situation, where constant suffering leads to experiencing even more suffering in the future through the process of sensitization (there are some theories that a lot of chronic pain is due to this rather than the original injury). It really doesn’t seem fair how massive this imbalance is. I’ve slowly realized that I probably won’t ever figure out exactly what will make me happy, but I definitely know what makes me unhappy, and it’s much easier to develop a life plan based on avoiding negative things than pursuing positive things.

ben_w 5y ago
You could go for what Iain M Banks did in The Culture: although death is theoretically optional, most people only live for a few hundred years because by that point they’re basically done with everything they care about doing.
mLuby 5y ago
> either you would die at some point (which creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event) or live forever, which actually seems more horrible in a way We know death causes suffering, but we don't know if immortality causes suffering. Don't knock it till you've tried it. #FableOfTheDragonTyrant
- slowmovintarget 5y ago
  I've always thought of that trope in fiction of immortal beings wanting to die as being silly. It seems like a case of the fox considering the grapes to be sour because it couldn't reach them, on the part of writers.
  - bspammer 5y ago
    I'm somewhere in the middle - I think the human lifespan is miserably short and really wish it could be extended. The fact that I and everyone I love will likely die in the next 40 years sucks. I could probably easily fill 500 years without getting bored, and I'm not going to pretend it doesn't suck. I do think being immortal would eventually drive you insane though. Humans can't grasp the mindbending vastness of infinity. If a genie offered me true immortality, or death in 10 years, I'm taking the decade. It's just too risky. Thankfully, not a problem I'll ever have.
    - mLuby 5y ago
      Oh that's a good distinction to make: involuntary immortality (as with many superpowers) could easily be a curse, or torture. Although like with zombie-powered generators, it's fun to think of ways to exploit a monkey paw's downsides.
trjordan 5y ago
The Good Place (the show) took a try at this! It’s an exceptional show in many ways, and the final season spends a lot of time trying to solve this exact problem and grappling with its consequences. (I won’t spoil it for you, but Wikipedia has a summary if you don’t want to watch.)
formerly_proven 5y ago
I'm not sure why it is common wisdom that a very long lifespan is supposed to be horrific. It seems to me like our lifespans inform many issues (e.g. lack of long-term planning on all levels of society, because YOLO, people being constantly afraid to "waste their best years" etc.)
PeterisP 5y ago
IMHO "creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event" is not an axiom - if you know that the event won't be unwanted and forced upon you by circumstances or others, but will hapen iff and when you're satisfied with that, then the issue that people generally die does not need to invoke suffering.
slowmovintarget 5y ago
There's quite a bit of evidence that meaning is what makes one happy. Pleasure is a very tiny component. Avoiding suffering doesn't guarantee you gain meaning. Suffering can diminish happiness, but one can be happy while suffering. This is not because one enjoys suffering, but because one is able to see it as having a purpose. Drug addiction and other addictive behaviors can be linked back to self-medicating processes that are attempts at avoiding the mental agony of purposelessness. How one gains meaning and purpose is a much deeper discussion.
- twodave 5y ago
  So true. I've experienced more than my share of addiction, and the dopamine hits, while intense, only bring momentary pleasure. Instead of happiness, feelings of shame are often the result. Fortunately there are many things out there that both bring happiness and pleasure. But the pleasure happens at the appropriate time and place. For instance. 1. The high one experiences during or after strenuous exercise. 2. The satisfaction of a job well done (whether physical labor or not). 3. The feeling of relief after going through a difficult time. 4. Even sex, when it results from genuine emotional/spiritual connection with a spouse. These things all involve a moderate-to-severe degree of pain. Yes, even the fourth one. It is hard to trust another person with our own personal darkness. Those things (drugs, eating, shopping, porn, etc.) that attempt to isolate and repeat just the reward/pleasure sensations experienced in life not only cheapen the experience, but limit our capacity to enjoy real life fully.

ben_w 5y ago

You could go for what Iain M Banks did in The Culture: although death is theoretically optional, most people only live for a few hundred years because by that point they’re basically done with everything they care about doing.

mLuby 5y ago

> either you would die at some point (which creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event) or live forever, which actually seems more horrible in a way We know death causes suffering, but we don't know if immortality causes suffering. Don't knock it till you've tried it. #FableOfTheDragonTyrant

slowmovintarget 5y ago
I've always thought of that trope in fiction of immortal beings wanting to die as being silly. It seems like a case of the fox considering the grapes to be sour because it couldn't reach them, on the part of writers.
- bspammer 5y ago
  I'm somewhere in the middle - I think the human lifespan is miserably short and really wish it could be extended. The fact that I and everyone I love will likely die in the next 40 years sucks. I could probably easily fill 500 years without getting bored, and I'm not going to pretend it doesn't suck. I do think being immortal would eventually drive you insane though. Humans can't grasp the mindbending vastness of infinity. If a genie offered me true immortality, or death in 10 years, I'm taking the decade. It's just too risky. Thankfully, not a problem I'll ever have.
  - mLuby 5y ago
    Oh that's a good distinction to make: involuntary immortality (as with many superpowers) could easily be a curse, or torture. Although like with zombie-powered generators, it's fun to think of ways to exploit a monkey paw's downsides.

trjordan 5y ago

The Good Place (the show) took a try at this! It’s an exceptional show in many ways, and the final season spends a lot of time trying to solve this exact problem and grappling with its consequences. (I won’t spoil it for you, but Wikipedia has a summary if you don’t want to watch.)

formerly_proven 5y ago

I'm not sure why it is common wisdom that a very long lifespan is supposed to be horrific. It seems to me like our lifespans inform many issues (e.g. lack of long-term planning on all levels of society, because YOLO, people being constantly afraid to "waste their best years" etc.)

PeterisP 5y ago

IMHO "creates suffering due to the anticipation of the event" is not an axiom - if you know that the event won't be unwanted and forced upon you by circumstances or others, but will hapen iff and when you're satisfied with that, then the issue that people generally die does not need to invoke suffering.

slowmovintarget 5y ago

There's quite a bit of evidence that meaning is what makes one happy. Pleasure is a very tiny component. Avoiding suffering doesn't guarantee you gain meaning. Suffering can diminish happiness, but one can be happy while suffering. This is not because one enjoys suffering, but because one is able to see it as having a purpose. Drug addiction and other addictive behaviors can be linked back to self-medicating processes that are attempts at avoiding the mental agony of purposelessness. How one gains meaning and purpose is a much deeper discussion.

twodave 5y ago
So true. I've experienced more than my share of addiction, and the dopamine hits, while intense, only bring momentary pleasure. Instead of happiness, feelings of shame are often the result. Fortunately there are many things out there that both bring happiness and pleasure. But the pleasure happens at the appropriate time and place. For instance. 1. The high one experiences during or after strenuous exercise. 2. The satisfaction of a job well done (whether physical labor or not). 3. The feeling of relief after going through a difficult time. 4. Even sex, when it results from genuine emotional/spiritual connection with a spouse. These things all involve a moderate-to-severe degree of pain. Yes, even the fourth one. It is hard to trust another person with our own personal darkness. Those things (drugs, eating, shopping, porn, etc.) that attempt to isolate and repeat just the reward/pleasure sensations experienced in life not only cheapen the experience, but limit our capacity to enjoy real life fully.